How come BBEG coming out never have magic weapons or items?

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Wow, 5e is a radical departure from D&D tradition. And it has fragile balance, indeed!

Is there any kind of guidance on how to rebalance the game when using optional stuff?

In my experience, the balance is actually quite resilient. It's just that, thanks to bounded accuracy, the math is very tight, so every +1 has a very significant impact. As long as you're aware of that, it's pretty easy to add and remove options without breaking the game. It's just that WotC puts responsibility for that firmly in the DM's hands and says "don't blame us if you break it."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
In my experience, the balance is actually quite resilient. It's just that, thanks to bounded accuracy, the math is very tight, so every +1 has a very significant impact. As long as you're aware of that, it's pretty easy to add and remove options without breaking the game. It's just that WotC puts responsibility for that firmly in the DM's hands and says "don't blame us if you break it."
Without guidance on how not to break it, this is the worst sales pitch I've heard in quite a while. Like okay, flexibility is good but if things are getting thrown out of what just with feats, multiclassing, and flaming swords, I'd expect some guidance on getting things back in whack. Especially considering that no/minimal loot is a radical departure from D&D norms.

Although I'm not clear on the magical items issue, is it that 5e was tested with zero magical items, or that 5e doesn't say how many or which items it was tested under?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Without guidance on how not to break it, this is the worst sales pitch I've heard in quite a while. Like okay, flexibility is good but if things are getting thrown out of what just with feats, multiclassing, and flaming swords, I'd expect some guidance on getting things back in whack. Especially considering that no/minimal loot is a radical departure from D&D norms.
Ok, it seems like some things are getting exaggerated here. Feats and multiclassing are both optional. Allowing them doesn’t generally break the game. There are a few feats that are especially strong (namely Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, Great Weapon Master, and Polearm Master), and some pretty cheesy stuff can be achieved with dipping one or two levels of a certain class (the worst offender being Warlock 2/Sorcerer X). But like... The degree by which they exceed the expected power curve is nothing compared to some of the absurd stuff that was possible with multiclassing and Feats in 3.5. The Sorlock is pretty strong, but it’s no CoDzilla. If you’ve managed to run 3.5 with even slightly powergamey players, 5e will be a cakewalk by comparison.

Although I'm not clear on the magical items issue, is it that 5e was tested with zero magical items, or that 5e doesn't say how many or which items it was tested under?
5e has very, very tight accuracy math that intentionally does not take into account the effects of +x magic items. A character with a +1 sword will hit 5% more often than they are “supposed to”. A character with a set of +1 armor will be hit 5% less often than they are “supposed to.” This is by design, and was done mostly in response to critique that, in 3e and 4e, you need certain +x items by certain levels just to keep up, which meant if the DM didn’t give out the right items on the right schedule, the party could end up too weak (or too strong, if they gave out too much) for their level and break the CR math. It also made magic items an expected thing on the player’s side, which some folks felt made magic not feel rare or special enough. So, for 5e, they decided to leave magic items completely out of the encounter math. DMs are free to distribute magic items any way they see fit (at their own informed risk), and players know that when they receive magic items, they are always a true bonus and never necessary to keep pace with the treadmill.

EDIT: Personally, I think all of this nonsense could easily be resolved by just getting rid of the +x on magic items entirely, and letting magic items stand out on their magical effects alone. But apparently +x magic items are one of those things it doesn’t “feel like D&D” without.
 
Last edited:

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Magic items make the party better. Making monsters stronger because the party has magic items defeats the purpose of the items. That is why 5e is the way it is and not like 3e. In 3e magic items weren't special because they were assumed.

Part of the game can be finding enough items along the way to be able to survive and/or defeat the big baddies later on. At our table it is possible for parties to fail adventures/objectives. Usually this comes in the form of retreat if things have gone poorly, but sometimes adventure tasks are flubbed. The consequence is usually that they will get less treasure out of it. If they got more treasure then the next adventure would be easier. I would never make the next adventure harder just because the party did well in the previous one.

If monsters get magic items those monsters will be stronger. That's fine too.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
So how come even guys like Grazzt seem to have non magical weapons? I get that all their attacks are effectively magic, but almost no weapon wielding monsters seem to be able to find even a +1 weapon to use? You think being Demon lords or even just a high ranking Marilith they could swing something like that.
I think there are two answers to this. One is "Wave of Sorrow". The other is below...

The DMG rules indicate that you generate treasure for Grazzt (CR 24) using either the Individual or Hoard tables. Seeing as Grazzt will have a host of minions, and is interested in amassing treasure, a Hoard seems correct. Every line on the 17+ Hoard table includes some number of magic items.

Why doesn't Grazzt use those items?

Is that what you mean? I can't find anywhere that suggests creatures don't use items in their hoards.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Without guidance on how not to break it, this is the worst sales pitch I've heard in quite a while. Like okay, flexibility is good but if things are getting thrown out of what just with feats, multiclassing, and flaming swords, I'd expect some guidance on getting things back in whack. Especially considering that no/minimal loot is a radical departure from D&D norms.

Although I'm not clear on the magical items issue, is it that 5e was tested with zero magical items, or that 5e doesn't say how many or which items it was tested under?
5e is resilient. As my answer above implies, Grazzt has a magic item - where creatures have items they tend to be built into their stat-lines and part of their CR. Which should have been the case in earlier editions, too! Additionally, most high CR creatures have some number of magic items in their treasure hoard. They can go ahead and use those items. Nothing will break. Or at least, not in ways that aren't entertaining :p
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Without guidance on how not to break it, this is the worst sales pitch I've heard in quite a while. Like okay, flexibility is good but if things are getting thrown out of what just with feats, multiclassing, and flaming swords, I'd expect some guidance on getting things back in whack. Especially considering that no/minimal loot is a radical departure from D&D norms.

Although I'm not clear on the magical items issue, is it that 5e was tested with zero magical items, or that 5e doesn't say how many or which items it was tested under?

What is the guidance you (general 'You', not you specifically) need? Experience. If (general) you don't have the game experience necessary to effectively balance your game when you start allowing all the optional material, then you probably shouldn't be using the optional material yet.

When you buy a new boardgame and the rules include a whole bunch of Advanced rules over the base game... do you include all those Advanced rules on your first playthrough? No. You play the base game a bunch of times until the rules of the game becomes engrained in your head, and then you look through the Advanced rules and decide "Hey, that rule could make the game more interesting, let's add that one next time." And you start adding them all to the game over time once you are comfortable doing it.

And its the same thing with the Optional rules in D&D. You learn to play and run the base game first. Once you are comfortable with that, and you've gotten a pretty good handle on keeping the game fun and at a equilibrium so it doesn't spiral out of control... then you can starting introducing more complex concepts to your game. And by that point you should have the experience necessary to roll with the changes and keep things grounded for yourself. Without requiring WotC to write up all kinds of instructions to make sure you're doing it correctly.

So there's no point in WotC trying to "teach" the way to use all those Optional rules in the book for people who aren't comfortable using them to begin with. One, because there are thousands of different styles, methods, and foci of dungeonmastering for which any attempted "teachable moment" that they might write in the book is completely useless to thousands of DMs because it doesn't match up to what they need to learn. And two... the best way to learn how to be a great DM is by doing and not just reading. They want you to try and fail and then try again, rather than think you can just read a couple teaching moments and then magically be able to run every complicated game scenario you'll ever run into. It doesn't happen that way. And WotC realizes this, which is why they do little to even try. It's like putting those "How To Roleplay" sections in the front of RPG books-- for the most part they are wastes of space. Most players don't need them, and for those that do they don't actually help. Because you don't learn to play just by reading it, you actually need to sit down and play.

Heck, that's really why the Challenge Rating system isn't that "good". Because they know that no system of magically trying to teach DMs how to balance encounters over single fights, multiple fights between short rests, and multiple fights between long rests, will actually work and be effective for everybody because every DM runs their fights differently and focuses on different things. Instead, they give you the most bare-bones system and then tell you to run the game and figure out what works best for you yourself.

But apparently too many DMs don't want to take those babysteps, or just don't want to put in the work to actually learn. They want a magical plug-and-play system handed to them that will allow them to run the game exactly how they want to with every bell and whistle attached, and never a mistake to be found. And they get pissy that WotC can't or won't give it to them. Whelp... dem's da breaks. You ain't getting what you want, because WotC knows its not possible, *and* its not conducive to actually learning the ins-and-outs of the game.
 
Last edited:

pming

Legend
Hiya!

Again, I think @Oofta and @CHarlaquin pretty much nailed it.

I wrote a post yesterday that ended up being a bit too verbose so I scrapped it and figured I'd wait a day. (smart... or just lucky?... move on my part ;) ).

How did 1e achieve "balance"? The DM. How does ANY rpg achieve "balance". The GM. Over the decades I have come to the realization that the "DM" is actually the most important rule in an RPG. This idea doesn't sit well with a lot of "newer" players for some reason. It's like they can't accept that someone has more power/importance to the game than themselves or something. I blame the education system and cell phones, but I'm old and crotchety.

I never had a problem in 1e with "balance". The base game was modular and balanced enough that over time (key factor there) a DM will learn how to, well, DM. Being a Dungeon Master is so much more than just "rolling dice for the monsters". The DM is not "just another player with a different role". A DM is the one who will be the 'world', and as such, with experience, will develop his/her own style of DM'ing and his/her campaign setting will take on a life of it's own. One DM's Greyhawk Campaign will differ, sometimes greatly, from another DM's Greyhawk Campaign. This is due to preference, experience, and effort/time.

So, to "rebalance" things in 5e...you have to just sort of do it. Sorry to burst the bubble of any new DM wanting some sort of list of do's and don'ts that will "automatically" do it for them. It doesn't work that way. You have to "earn your chops", so to speak. And that only comes with doing, and failing, and figuring out how to turn that failure into a learning experience so that next time something similar comes up you know what not to.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 
Last edited:

dave2008

Legend
Without guidance on how not to break it, this is the worst sales pitch I've heard in quite a while. Like okay, flexibility is good but if things are getting thrown out of what just with feats, multiclassing, and flaming swords, I'd expect some guidance on getting things back in whack. Especially considering that no/minimal loot is a radical departure from D&D norms.

Although I'm not clear on the magical items issue, is it that 5e was tested with zero magical items, or that 5e doesn't say how many or which items it was tested under?

This seems like an overreaction. Others have said it better, but here is my take:

5e balanced around no + magic items. However, it does not break if you add + magic items. My group plays with + magic items and I use the MM monsters as is and we have no problem. If your group needs more of a challenge, give the monsters + magic items - super simple.

Though feats and multiclassing are optional, 5e is generally balanced to accommodate them (multiclassing is supposed to be balanced and feats are supposed to equal an ASI). Using multiclasiing and feats will not break the game, period. Some groups may experience greater synergy and character and/or party strength by using these options. However, this is by no means universal or even typical.

Personally, my group has + magic items, multiclasses, and uses feats. We use the MM monster as is 90% of the time and the game works great - nothing is broken for us.

The best advice is to play the game. What is broken to some is completely fine for others. My group has not experienced anything close to game breaking with 5e, others feel differently. Same rules but different play styles will get you different results, I can't tell you what you will find.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
5e has very, very tight accuracy math that intentionally does not take into account the effects of +x magic items.
That's very strange indeed. This is something that the DMG spells out explicitly?

Charlaquin said:
DMs are free to distribute magic items any way they see fit (at their own informed risk), and players know that when they receive magic items, they are always a true bonus and never necessary to keep pace with the treadmill.
Without any guidance, it's an ignorant risk and thus a false flexibility of the game. I mean okay, compensating for +x boosters is simple enough, if tedious -- just add x to monster attacks and defenses. But feats, multiclassing, and miscellaneous items is not something I'd want to have to compensate for just to play a good ol' fashioned D&D game. If I allow feats and flaming swords, is there a simple compensation like beefing up monster HP? If I allow multiclassing and this or that miscellaneous item, am I going to need more complex and energy-intensive fixes like dropping odd resistances or immunities into monster stat blocks? Etc..

(Yes, you say these concerns are exaggerated, but several posters have dropped pretty dire warnings in response to the OP before I joined the thread. So if I'm to be prepared for a worst-case scenario, I have to assume the dire warnings are true.)

Charlaquin said:
EDIT: Personally, I think all of this nonsense could easily be resolved by just getting rid of the +x on magic items entirely, and letting magic items stand out on their magical effects alone. But apparently +x magic items are one of those things it doesn’t “feel like D&D” without.
I agree, and I'm currently DMing a D&D-alike that has no +x items. And it has feats and multiclassing built-in. Love it!
 

Remove ads

Top