How do I pick up an item in an opponents square

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Whoa - loaded question.

If you aren't threatened in hand to hand combat - you do this automatically.

If you are so threatened the Character must decide to do so as a move action or an attack action. You may also choose to remain in the square - or move THROUGH the square, if you have the appropriate feat(s). It is a complicated choice of mechanics.

1. Attack option (in square) -

Make an attack roll. The item most likely has an AC of 5 to "start a grapple". As you do this with an "unarmed strike" you need the imp unarmed strike to do so without an AoO - Unless you are a dog or the like (Ranger use of Animal companion - trained to fetch even under fire).

If you hit - you automatically win the grapple; as the object has no strength score, and the item is in hane.

You expend one of your "attacks" in this manner (if you have multiple attacks from high BAB you can pick it up on your first attack and stick said baddie with weapon using second attack)

2. Move option (in square)-

you "move in" close enough to pick up the item (within your unarmed strike reach) Success is automatic, but you provoke AoO normally. Any creature that threatens the square you stand in gets an AoO unless you avoid. IF you remain in the square - Tumble CANNOT help you avoid the resulting AoO. Concentration however CAN help you, DC as for "violent motion" (20 IIRC)

Reach is a factor here - and this is a move equivalent action; drawing a weapon.

3. Attack option (through square)

This solution requires Spring attack as you move before and after your "grapple attack". Tumble allows you to avoid the first "AoO" provocation for moving thru the square, as the "drawing the weapon from the ground" move action is combined with the actual square movement action. You potentially provoke a second AoO for the unarmed strike to start a grapple as above in 1.

You are expending both your "move" and "attack" actions in this solution.

4. Move option (through square)

This solution potentially provokes TWO AoO - one for the movement and one for the "draw weapon from the ground". Hope your opponents don't have combat reflexes. You MAY avoid both of these. The first is avoided with a Tumble check. The second is avoided by a Concentration check, also as per "Violent motion".

Doing this expends a move action.

p.s. - Dirty Rogue Trick

Flat Footed opponents do not get AoO s at all... Combat feint anyone?

Hope this helps.

 

[James McMurray]

1. Attack option (in square) -

Make an attack roll. The item most likely has an AC of 5 to "start a grapple". As you do this with an "unarmed strike" you need the imp unarmed strike to do so without an AoO - Unless you are a dog or the like (Ranger use of Animal companion - trained to fetch even under fire).

If you hit - you automatically win the grapple; as the object has no strength score, and the item is in hane.

You expend one of your "attacks" in this manner (if you have multiple attacks from high BAB you can pick it up on your first attack and stick said baddie with weapon using second attack)

You can't grapple inanimate objects.

2. Move option (in square)-

you "move in" close enough to pick up the item (within your unarmed strike reach) Success is automatic, but you provoke AoO normally. Any creature that threatens the square you stand in gets an AoO unless you avoid. IF you remain in the square - Tumble CANNOT help you avoid the resulting AoO. Concentration however CAN help you, DC as for "violent motion" (20 IIRC)

Concentration cannot help avoid AoOs for actions that are not listed in it's description: casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity.

3. Attack option (through square)

This solution requires Spring attack as you move before and after your "grapple attack". Tumble allows you to avoid the first "AoO" provocation for moving thru the square, as the "drawing the weapon from the ground" move action is combined with the actual square movement action. You potentially provoke a second AoO for the unarmed strike to start a grapple as above in 1.

You are expending both your "move" and "attack" actions in this solution.

Same problem as #1.

4. Move option (through square)

This solution potentially provokes TWO AoO - one for the movement and one for the "draw weapon from the ground". Hope your opponents don't have combat reflexes. You MAY avoid both of these. The first is avoided with a Tumble check. The second is avoided by a Concentration check, also as per "Violent motion".

Same problem as #2.

Flat Footed opponents do not get AoO s at all... Combat feint anyone?

Feinting in combat does not make your opponent flatfooted, it only denies them their dex bonus against your next attack. It cannot help avoid AoOs.

I don't know why people are trying to make this so complicated. Reach for unarmed combatants is defined. Picking up an item is defined. Combining the two should be fairly straightforward.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Concentration cannot help avoid AoOs for actions that are not listed in it's description: casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity.

Excuse Me - pg 69 concentration skill PHB 3.5

Concentration skill

Check: You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention.

It is Expressly NOT limited to those actions, they are listed as EXAMPLES only. The summary is inculsive, not exclusive.


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You can't grapple inanimate objects.

Excuse Me again -

If you can Attack an object with your hand; you can grapple it. You wouldn't ordinarily want to do this, but you can. If it is inanimate, it just can't fight back - as It has no str score. The example module adventure in the DMG of 3.5 has the scenario of "grappling an object" contained inside a pool of water. Somebody jumps into the pool of water to grapple the map before it "floats away".

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Feinting in combat does not make your opponent flatfooted, it only denies them their dex bonus against your next attack. It cannot help avoid AoOs.

Perdona Me -

For this, I appeal to common sense, not strictly the rulebook. If you are denied your dex bonus to AC against your next attack you are unable to react to the danger of being attacked, because your senses do not allow it. Logic would follow that you cannot react to an opportunity to inflict damage any more than you could avoid taking it.

 

[James McMurray]

I can't argue with that "logic."

I'll just say that concentration gives a list of what it does. If you feel like adding to that list you can. That quote you gave doesn't mention avoiding AoOs, it talks about distracting environments and conditions.

I'll also point out that grappling refers to opponents. I suppose if you let your group declare inanimate objects as opponents that's your call.

Feinting says what it does and it does what it does. If you want it to do more, that is yet again your call.

House rules are a great thing, but shouldn't be given as real rules in a rules discussion on a rules forum. All IMO and YMMV.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

I'll just say that concentration gives a list of what it does. If you feel like adding to that list you can. That quote you gave doesn't mention avoiding AoOs, it talks about distracting environments and conditions.

on the chart my friend is:

"Damaged during the action" (required in reaction to an AoO to retain the item in hand)

as well as

"Vigorous Motion" (on moving mount)
"Violent Motion" (on galloping horse)
"Extraordinarily Violent Motion" (earthquake)

for when you make the check as part of the action "pick up an item" of miscelaneous move actions. The exact DC is a matter for the DM - my opinion would be DC 15 if you are trying to stay in the same square and DC 20 if this is as part of a "tumble" movement. IMHO, the listed circumstances you are refering to would apply.

Also, when I am a player the lock on the treasure chest is as much my "opponent" as the creature who guards said chest. However, as the treasure chest can't "hurt the PC" I would never award XP for overcoming the obstacle of the chest - only the creature. My DM doesn't really determine who My "opponent" is - I do.

As far as for combat feint, it may be a house rule because it appeals to logic, but it is the DM's job to cover circumstances not in a rulebook. The actions are defined as provoking AoO's. So are the means of avoiding them in the right circumstance.

 

[James McMurray]

"Damaged during an action" means using concentration in reaction to being damaged. If you avoid damage, how can you use it while being "damaged by an action?"

Vigorous Motion has nothing to do with picking up an object.

You are of course free to name inanimate objects as opponents. I already said that. If I were GM and you tried to grapple an inanimate object I'd laugh and say "you mean you want to pick it up?" If you're the GM I'll happily cheese out the grapple rules that way if you'll let me.

 

[Dheran]

How would a rogue with a good tumble pick up a weapon that had recently been disarmed from an opponent.

I don't see how Tumble could help you with this. Picking up the weapon is a move action, according to the rules. While you're permitted to make two move actions in a round, you can't end up in an occupied square. I don't know of any feat that will let you split actual movement around another move action. So you can't actually move into the square, pick up the weapon, and leave in a single round. You wouldn't want to do it that way if you could help it, anyway (although if you're size tiny or smaller you wouldn't have any choice).

Assuming a natural 5' (or longer) reach, the Rogue would just reach into the square and pick up the weapon. This move action is going to provoke an AoO. But since the opponent has just been disarmed they won't threaten the Rogue unless they've got

• a weapon in their off hand and they've taken the two-weapon fighting penalty during their previous round,
• the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
• monk levels, or
• some form of natural attack.

For most standard races and classes there will be no AoO. But if there is a successful AoO, retaining the weapon will require a Concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt).

One thing to keep in mind is that if this is a new round the Rogue can decide to go into total defense mode, burning a standard action for +6 to AC. The plan then would be: go into total defense as standard action, grab the dropped weapon as move action, then take 5' step away.

Would this require Spring Attack or something? That seems like overkill to me, though.

There's no attack going on, plus retrieving the dropped weapon is a move action, so Spring Attack doesn't work at all. I can't think of a valid "or something" that would let the Rogue avoid the AoO if the disarmed enemy still threatens.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Assuming a natural 5' (or longer) reach, the Rogue would just reach into the square and pick up the weapon. This move action is going to provoke an AoO. But since the opponent has just been disarmed they won't threaten the Rogue unless they've got
a weapon in their off hand and they've taken the two-weapon fighting penalty during their previous round,
the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
monk levels, or
some form of natural attack.

This is an excellent point; The character that has been disarmed may not threaten in the first place. Howver, His ally might threaten you.

So you can't actually move into the square, pick up the weapon, and leave in a single round.

Why would you of necessity have to even try to this? I would argue that the item must be within your "reach", which is dictated by your size/battlefield footprint. Couldn't you do this from an adjacent square or (if you were size large) into a square that you could reach? I would appreciate someone defending the requirement that the item you are "picking up" has to be in the same square that you are in when you take the move action.

The plan then would be: go into total defense as standard action, grab the dropped weapon as move action, then take 5' step away.

If you are making this statement the way I think you are, you are starting the round in an adjacent square and/or a square into which you have reach.

There's no attack going on, plus retrieving the dropped weapon is a move action, so Spring Attack doesn't work at all. I can't think of a valid "or something" that would let the Rogue avoid the AoO if the disarmed enemy still threatens.

I agree that one is not required - however you can make an attack with an unarmed strike and acquire a weapon. There is a precedent in the Disarm skill for this. As I stated before there is no prohibition against choosing to start a grapple against an unattended object. You aren't required to take an attack action by any means, but we are discussing the possibilities. The rules allow this "cheese" as written, which may be important for the character with a high BAB (specifically take a full attack action - "grapple" the unattended weapon, then hit somebody with said weapon).

"Damaged during an action" means using concentration in reaction to being damaged. If you avoid damage, how can you use it while being "damaged by an action?"

Let Me try it this way - under concentration

Action: None Making a concentration check doesn't take an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively)

If you have already taken damage from a sucessful AoO, you are doing the former. If your player has the sense to do so actively as part of his "move action - pick up an item"; you avoid the AoO in the first place; they are two separate circumstances. The DC of the latter is determined by what "rate of motion" you are at; 10, 15 or 20 - DM's call.

 

[James McMurray]

Again, you're pointing out things that don't matter. Other than in your mind, there is nothing to indicate you can use concentration checks on anything but what the skill says you can use it on.

If you're honest;ly c;laiming the rules as written allow grappling objects, you're not reading the rules the rest of the D&D players are. LOL

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Under Concentration skill:

Quote:
Action: None Making a concentration check doesn't take an action; it is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or part of another action (when attempted actively)

SINCE WHEN IS "move action - pick up an item" NOT AN ACTION?

Last I checked, It happens to be an action of the subcategory move action.
Other subcategories include (but are not limited to) full-round action, standard action, and free action.

I'm starting to get passionate here, and I realize that - but this is bordering on some far realm absurdity.