How do I pick up an item in an opponents square

[James McMurray]

Found it in the FAQ. Basically it says "it's up to the DM."

If an enemy makes an attack against me that would
provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or
grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I
can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat
help at all?

Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t
make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an
ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away,
you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre
(since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy
10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with
his hand, such as when trying to grapple you.

Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since
that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a
grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special
ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists
Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples.

If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your
players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider
the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in
the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with
any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact
with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity
against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s
contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a
grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could
make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly
coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre
trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke
an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the
greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).

 

[RigaMortus2]

I like that FAQ ruling, because it calls out how it would work according to the RAW, and then suggests an alternate way it can be ruled, calling that out as a house rule. This is a good example of what the FAQ was meant to do IMHO.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I like that FAQ ruling, because it calls out how it would work according to the RAW, and then suggests an alternate way it can be ruled, calling that out as a house rule. This is a good example of what the FAQ was meant to do IMHO.

Except I hadn't read this and had my favorite power gaming rules lawyer in my face asking "if I take Close-Quarters Fighting are you going to rule on Reach to screw me?"

I'm still not sure if I like his houserule.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Flat Footed opponents do not get AoO s at all... Combat feint anyone?

Hope this helps.

Just to piggy back off of what others have stated...

Using Feint in combat will only deny the target's Dex bonus to AC for your next attack.
Someone being denied their Dex bonus to AC is NOT the same as being flat-footed (though they are very similiar, they are not the same).

Being flat-footed occurs during the beginning of combat before you have a chance to act (there are some feats out there that specifically do make someone flat-footed once combat has begun, look at the Low-Blow feat in Forgotten Realms 3.0).
Oh yeah, another way to become flat-footed after combat has begun is via Balancing. You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing.

So, what is the main difference between flat-footed and being denied your Dex bonus to AC?

A flat-footed creature can not make attacks of opportunity.

A creature that loses his Dex bonus to AC (such as from Feint) can still make attacks of opportunity.

Also, there are certain abilities that can only be befored on a flat-footed opponent, but not one who has simple just lost their "Dex bonus to AC". Iajitsu Focus from Oreental Adventures is such an example.

Hope this clears up some of your misconceptions between flat-footed and lose of Dex bonus to AC!

 

[RigaMortus2]

Excuse Me again -

If you can Attack an object with your hand; you can grapple it. You wouldn't ordinarily want to do this, but you can. If it is inanimate, it just can't fight back - as It has no str score. The example module adventure in the DMG of 3.5 has the scenario of "grappling an object" contained inside a pool of water. Somebody jumps into the pool of water to grapple the map before it "floats away".

Just because there is an option to Attack an Object, doesn't mean you can grapple it. The two are not realted. That being said...

I suppose you could grapple an inanimate object. Under the grapple rules it does not state you can only grapple a "creature". It does mention you make grapple checks against an opponent though. And since there is no in-game term to define what an opponent is, I suppose a lenient DM might allow you to declare an inanimate object an opponent.

So, let's take a look at exactly what happens when we try to grapple a sword (to use as an example of our inanimate object).

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Lucky for us, our target can not fight back, so while we technically still provoke an AoO against the sword, it can't make one.

Step 2
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

The touch AC of a sword lying on the ground is very easy to hit. I think it's around AC 5 or so.

Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

Well, the sword can't make a grapple check. I would consider this the same thing as grappling a stunned or dazed opponent.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

Roll them dice and see if you penatrate the hardness and do any damage to the sword (probably not)

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

So you move into the square that the sword is in. If there is an enemy in that square, you'll provoke an AoO from him. Also, the DM may argue that you can not occupy the same space as another creature (one which you are not grappling with), which leads us to:

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target.

So after all that, your grapple check fails anyway...

But, let's take it a step further and say our DM is REALLLY lenient... He is allowing us to grapple this sword while in the same square as an opponent. Now what are our options when grappling our target (the sword)?

You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple

Seems like you are giving up WAY too much trying to use the grapple rules in explaining how you are grappling (ie picking up) an item. Personally, I'd just stick with the Move Action "Pick up an Item" option.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Grappling while surrounded by orcs isn't going to provoke AoOs from all of those orcs, only the one you reach for.

Right, but Improved Grapple does nothing about the AoO you provoke from the seven others when you move into the first orc's square.

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

True, but that's not what's being discussed here. The AoO for starting the grapple is what's in question.

Besides, can't I just make my concentration check to avoid provoking from movement?

 

[Bryntryst]

Take a level of monk or use a feat to get the rogue Improved Unarmed Strike. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand. Sure, you lose out on the weapon bonuses, but don't have to deal with those pesky situations like this where you have to manipulate rules to get what you want.

I flat out wouldn't allow a player to use grappling rules to pick up an item off the ground when picking up an item is a specific action listed in the table of Actions in Combat. I don't think I would have a problem with using tumble to move through the opponent's square, but picking up the item itself during that movement I would definitely rule as an action that provokes.

 

[mvincent]

WotC has ruled that if a natural weapon provokes an AoO in a square you threaten you can attack it

As mentioned, the FAQ stated that RAW is actually the opposite of this (but leaves the door open for DM's to rule zero it... even though that's technically always true of any rule).

Although the Sage doesn't see a problem with changing the rules here, I see some issues with it (as do others. See this article for more information).

As a compromise, I allow players to use a readied action to attack an opponent's arm, weapon, tentacle, etc. as it enters their square even though they could not normally attack the opponent (due to reach).

 

[James McMurray]

As mentioned, the FAQ stated that RAW is actually the opposite of this (but leaves the door open for DM's to rule zero it... even though that's technically always true of any rule).

Yeah, as mentioned by me. No need to point it out to the guy that said it.