How Do Metamagic Rods Work For Preparation Spellcasters?

[wildstarsreach]

I summarize as follows: one can "use the feat" when one possesses the rod.

When does a Wizard normally use a metamagic feat? When the spell is prepared.*
When does a Sorcerer normally use a metamagic feat? When the spell is cast.

From this I conclude that Wizards use the rods at spell preparation, only, and Sorcerers use the rods at casting time, only.

*To those who might argue this, what happens, for example, if a Wizard has the Quicken Spell Feat, prepares a Quickened Magic Missile, then loses the feat? Does the spell go away? Revert to its normal level? Become unavailalbe? Or simply stay available ready to cast in its Quickened form? I would contend the last option is the correct one.

Additionally this quote supports the idea that Metamagic Feats are used by Wizards at preparation:


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This line is troublesome because, in the case of Wizards, the rod has nothing to do with casting, only with spell preparation. My interpretation of this internally contradictory description would be to interpret "can cast" as "can cast or prepare". A stretch I realize, but metamagic feats are used by Wizards when they prepare their spells, not when they cast them, IMHO.

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As I see it this line isn't really telling us anything new. If one insists that it's there for a reason, I think it's there so that Sorcerers wouldn't claim that casting a spell metamagic'd with a rod wouldn't draw an attack of opportunity.

All good points but there is an abuse factor. Over a period of time having all their spells prepared with a metamagic feat. Also as many others have said, I wouldn't have them available for sale. Unless they find them or have the appropriate skills to create them, then I as DM control how these are out and affecting the balance of my game.

 

[Seeten]

Thats handled by the 3 per day rule, but you know, all these arguments are easily put to rest if you say "Everyone applies the feat at the time of casting, and nobody spends a full round 'applying' the feat."

 

[KarinsDad]

Be the wielder.

It is not a weapon. According to the metamagic text, it is merely possession.

It is not a wand. It is not a staff. These must be in hand. Nothing in the Rod text (that I could find) indicates that the possessor must be a wielder (in a weapon sense).

The only text I can find that might indicate that it must be "wielded" is:

Use-Activated
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

But, even this is vague on Rods.

The Rod of Alertness states "If grasped firmly". Many of the other rods have similar text. The Metamagic Rods have no such text.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What do you consider the sentence "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat." to mean, if not "The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat."? (This sentence is repeated once per type of metamagic feat.)

By my reading, the wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat. If he's a wizard, those three spells are the three upon which the Rod permitted him to use the feat; as a wizard, he uses the feat when he prepares the spells.

I consider the entire description, instead of individual sentences.

The sentence "You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar." is followed by "Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks."

Since a character wielding a real scimitar does not use a melee touch attack (melee touch attacks do not suffer from non-proficiency penalties as far as I know), I can conclude that wielding it isn't really like wielding a scimitar after all, and that it is only speaking in general in that regard, as it is followed immediately by a game mechanic instruction that covers the situation.

When I trip someone with a halberd, I make a melee touch attack. If I have Weapon Focus (Halberd), I add a +1 bonus to that melee touch attack roll. If I am not proficient with martial weapons (or the halberd in particular), I take a -4 penalty to that melee touch attack roll.

Do you disagree?

. . . that would not even remotely be necessary, not even as an off-hand reminder, if it could not be used in combat on-the-spot (in all cases).

If it can be used in combat on-the-spot in even a single case, the reminder is not out-of-place.

If I have a Weapon Special Ability that contains the line "Disarm attempts made with the weapon gain a +2 bonus (though light weapons still incur a -4 penalty as normal)", does that mean that the ability can only be applied to light weapons? Not at all. Does it mean that two-handed weapons don't get the normal +4 bonus? No, it doesn't. When writing the line, the author for some reason felt it necessary to remind readers about the penalty for using a light weapon... even though omitting this reminder would not alter the rules.

The reminder is applicable to light weapons, even though the ability can apply to weapons that are not light.

Similarly, a reminder about casting spells in a threatened area is applicable to those who use the rod while casting, even if that does not cover all the possible users of the rod.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The only text I can find that might indicate that it must be "wielded" is:

Metamagic, Empower: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat.

Metamagic, Enlarge: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are enlarged as though using the Enlarge Spell feat.

Metamagic, Extend: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat.

Metamagic, Maximize: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are maximized as though using the Maximize Spell feat.

Metamagic, Quicken: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are quickened as though using the Quicken Spell feat.

Metamagic, Silent: The wielder can cast up to three spells per day without verbal components as though using the Silent Spell feat.

Who can? The wielder can!

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Here's the problem with what you are suggesting. If you had a month between adventures. Every day a caster prepares 3 of their spell with the Metamagic rods power. If it is a greater rod, every spell that a wizard has could be for that adventure is empowered/maximized/ect. This is imbalancing.

Remember, there are two restrictions.

1. You can use the feat a specified number of times per day. (And when wizards etc use a metamagic feat, they do it at preparation time.)

2. The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are [Metamagic]ed.

So if he prepares 3 spells each day for a month using the Enlarge feat from the rod, say, it doesn't change that he can only cast three per day that are Enlarged.

-Hyp.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Remember, there are two restrictions.

1. You can use the feat a specified number of times per day. (And when wizards etc use a metamagic feat, they do it at preparation time.)

2. The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are [Metamagic]ed.

So if he prepares 3 spells each day for a month using the Enlarge feat from the rod, say, it doesn't change that he can only cast three per day that are Enlarged.

-Hyp.

This is an assumption that you are making. I think FAQ got it right but again this is an assumption that I am making. I hear constantly how people berate the FAQ. If you don't like the answer, you argue to the point to obsurdity ad nauseum. Raw is unclear and someone answers in FAQ to clarify.

I've run in two campaigns where these rods have been used. They have not caused an imbalance. They have given us options but a Headband of Intellect or any other enhancing items has gotten more use or mileage. These are balanced at the time of casting. To have 438000 GP in Greater Metamagic rods to have all your options would leave some horrible lacks in a wizard.

The poll states that about 75% of the people would or allow at time of casting. Just because the majority think something doesn't mean it right. But by the same token, they may be right since it doesn't imbalance most campaigns.

 

[RainOfSteel]

By my reading, the wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat. If he's a wizard, those three spells are the three upon which the Rod permitted him to use the feat; as a wizard, he uses the feat when he prepares the spells.

That goes pretty well, right up until you use the word "If". The rod is granting the feat's effect upon the spell when cast, not when prepared.

That's "can cast".

When I trip someone with a halberd [...]

A scimitar isn't one of the weapons that can be used to do that.

General melee touch attacks do not suffer from non-proficiency penalties, and neither would the use of a Flame Blade if the spellcaster was not proficient in the use of a scimitar.

If it can be used in combat on-the-spot in even a single case, the reminder is not out-of-place.

In that case, yes it would be out of place. If that were so, it would be misleading and in error because it did not specify.

If I have a Weapon Special Ability that contains the line "Disarm attempts made with the weapon gain a +2 bonus (though light weapons still incur a -4 penalty as normal)", does that mean that the ability can only be applied to light weapons?

The example you illustrate is not parallel, because the parenthetical note is specific (about light weapons) whereas the metamagic rod note about provoking attacks of opportunity is not specific (about what types of spellcasters it applies to).

 

[airwalkrr]

If the wizard finds a metamagic rod during an adventure that will not end before he can rest does that mean that he can't use it?

If the wizard levels up during an adventure and learns a metamagic feat, but the adventure will be over before the end of the day, does that mean that he can't use it? How unfair that he must abide by the rules of the game!

And if you're a sorcerer who's bummed about increasing the casting time wouldn't you rather ditch your familiar and take metamagic specialist from PHB 2?

You might. 3rd edition is all about choices. And then again, you might not. You might want a familiar or have an Intelligence of 12 and not see it as being that worthwhile.

 

[airwalkrr]

Yeah, that's a very good special rule (and I'm one of those who like familiars and find them highly useful ).

I even had a character pick up Metamagic Specialist and then Obtain Familiar later.

Bye
Thanee

Therefore, Metamagic Specialist should be a feat...