How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[ThirdWizard]

Stuff like that doesn't work. He'll say 1.5 between 1 and 3.

I even placed 10 object on a table and told him to circle the one in the middle. He knew it was between 5 and 6 but when I tried to get him to the dice he kept saying 5. He doesn't grasp that counting starts at 1 and not 0.

Ask him:

Average between 0-1
Average between 1-2
Average between 1-3
and so on?

 

[Enforcer]

Off the top of my head, the dazed and stunned conditions prevent psions from manifesting. Go monks and cantrips!

Edit: Blinding a psion keeps them from targetting you, as does frightening them and/or panicking them, making them nauseated, petrifying them (duh), or putting them to sleep. Also, a psion can't manifest while cowering, or if they've been fascinated.

Cheers,
Vurt

I believe the Unconditional Power feat mitigates this, but it increases the pp cost by 8.

 

[Vurt]

I believe the Unconditional Power feat mitigates this, but it increases the pp cost by 8.

Some of them, but not all. Plus, there are other limits on the Unconditional Power feat, and, quite frankly, in my games nobody has ever taken it.

My point in my original reply was simply that things aren't so bad as some folks make it out to be. The sky does not come crashing down on the heads of DMs who allow their players to play psion characters.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Felon]

Off the top of my head, the dazed and stunned conditions prevent psions from manifesting. Edit: Blinding a psion keeps them from targetting you, as does frightening them and/or panicking them, making them nauseated, petrifying them (duh), or putting them to sleep. Also, a psion can't manifest while cowering, or if they've been fascinated.

Well, duh, Vurt. Conditions that prevent characters from taking any actions prevent psions from manifesting. That's rather implicit, don't you think? I suspect a psion that's been polymorphed into a head of cheese probably can't manifest either.

My point in my original reply was simply that things aren't so bad as some folks make it out to be.

The things is, you don't really prove that point by presenting a canard like that. All that does is confirm that psions can indeed manifest as long as they are capable of taking an action, and thus aren't hampered by being bound, silenced, or grappled (as arcanists can be). If you want to prove that psionics are balanced, then present a scenario where arcane magic has a mechanical edge, rather than offering scenarios where anybody would be screwed.

Or, alternatively, you can simply assert that psionics are, from the standpoint of overall mechanical advantages, superior to arcane magic, but that's not a big deal. Is that what you're doing?

 

[Victim]

While psions can manifest while grappled, it takes awhile for them to do so reliably. A DC that starts at 20 doesn't become trivial (without skill items) for some time.

But it's pure anguish for sorcerers, at which point we're back to other folks' conclusion that psions get the best of both worlds; spontaneous dispensation of effects with a relatively broad selection of effects available.

Not really, in my opinion. Sorcerers have an easy time of it. Sorcerers are designed to cherry-pick the best spells. Sure, they have to make some sacrifices. Psions have to deal with the fact that pretty much all good powers are discipline restricted. It's less like wizard specialization and more having the "good" spells be restricted to only specialists in a given school.

Arcane magic probably has the edge anytime you'd want to run multiple school effects at the same time. Take the classics of buff/scry/teleport or the flying invisible fireball spammer. Psions can scry (generally better than wizards), but they need to burn feats to scry and 'port. Psions can't really go invisible. Arcane magic can also buff characters besides the psion. Running some illusion defenses supported by transmutation buffs and utility with evocation offense and necro/enchantment disabling/debuff effects is pretty feasible for an arcanist, even a sorcerer.

Arcane magic also seems to offer more ways around saves - Enervation vs Mind Wipe, Force Cage vs Mass Cocoon. Arcane spells are often more efficient in that they scale freely - while magic missile isn't very much damage at 10th level, it's still a noticeable amount while the damage a psion can do with 1 pp is generally pretty trivial. Arcane magic generally benefits more from supplements since most books contain few if any new powers.

 

[Vurt]

Well, duh, Vurt. Conditions that prevent characters from taking any actions prevent psions from manifesting. That's rather implicit, don't you think? I suspect a psion that's been polymorphed into a head of cheese probably can't manifest either.

Thanks! That's another one I missed!

The things is, you don't really prove that point by presenting a canard like that. All that does is confirm that psions can indeed manifest as long as they are capable of taking an action, and thus aren't hampered by being bound, silenced, or grappled (as arcanists can be). If you want to prove that psionics are balanced, then present a scenario where arcane magic has a mechanical edge, rather than offering scenarios where anybody would be screwed.

Or, alternatively, you can simply assert that psionics are, from the standpoint of overall mechanical advantages, superior to arcane magic, but that's not a big deal. Is that what you're doing?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was supposed to prove something here. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of whether or not adding psionics to one's game was worth the effort, not an argument for whether psionics is more uber than arcane magic. Haven't there been quite a few of those that noodled on forever and didn't really amount to anything? I seem to recall reading enough of them in the Rules forum.

So what if a psion can manifest while grappled? It doesn't mean the character can't be challenged in some other way, and I simply went to the effort of pointing out what some of those were.

Do I feel that psionics are superior to arcane magic? Probably not, simply owing to the sheer number and variety of arcane spells available. And even if it were, it's not a big deal.

The big deal is whether or not everyone is having fun at the table, psions and arcane casters alike. And to me that means challenging everyone appropriately. Maybe that's grappling the wizard and brain locking the psion instead of grappling them both. As a DM, this isn't a big deal, as there are options available to me.

Are psions perfectly balanced with wizards? In my opinion, absolutely not. But by the same token, neither of them are perfectly balanced with bards. If in your game psions rule the roost, then likely you'll never see another wizard played again, just like I've never seen a bard. Your milage may vary.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Rystil Arden]

Stuff like that doesn't work. He'll say 1.5 between 1 and 3.

I even placed 10 object on a table and told him to circle the one in the middle. He knew it was between 5 and 6 but when I tried to get him to the dice he kept saying 5. He doesn't grasp that counting starts at 1 and not 0.

He knows that you can get the average by adding up all possibilities and dividing by the number of total possibilities, right? So ask him to add up all the possible rolls on 1d6 (he should get 21) and divide by 6 (he should get 3.5).

 

[Psion]

He knows that you can get the average by adding up all possibilities and dividing by the number of total possibilities, right? So ask him to add up all the possible rolls on 1d6 (he should get 21) and divide by 6 (he should get 3.5).

Somehow, I think anyone capable of realizing that's how you come up with an average wouldn't be having this issue in the first place.

 

[Spatula]

Edit: Blinding a psion keeps them from targetting you,

Unless they have touchsight. Which they will ASAP if they're smart.

While psions can manifest while grappled, it takes awhile for them to do so reliably. A DC that starts at 20 doesn't become trivial (without skill items) for some time.

A DC 20 Concentration check, the one skill that you can be sure a psion will have maxed out. Since it's also a DC 20 check to regain your focus, it's in the best interests of just about all psionic characters to be able to make those checks as reliably as possible.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Which makes them somewhat inappropriate for campaigns where there is usually only one encounter between rests.

The same is true of all casters, particularly with quickened spells. D&D isnt balanced for 1 fight a day games. If you run those, you should *SEVERELY* power down any casting class. When you can lob your best level spells every round of the only fight, theres little reason to play anything else.