How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

Psions at high level

The main issue is i#when you reach really high levels. A wizard has to have Improved Heighten, LOTS of Improved Spell Capacity feats, taken as often as possible, to do well against monsters with huge save bonuses. A psion can generate DC's (and damage) just as well as a maxed out killdozer wizard for NO feats bought at all. Very effective.

On averages: Yes, 5.5 is average of a d10, but, in DM guide, it recommends using 5 as average when using a lot of dice at once, rather than rolling them: trading off a slightly higher score for reliability.
 

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Which makes them somewhat inappropriate for campaigns where there is usually only one encounter between rests.

The same is true of all casters, particularly with quickened spells. D&D isnt balanced for 1 fight a day games. If you run those, you should *SEVERELY* power down any casting class.

...Or significantly beef up the preparedness and potency of their opponents...

It is my understanding that one encounter with Tucker's legendary Kobolds is more than enough for most parties.
 

It's always claimed that Psions have some huge advantage if there's only one encounter per day. As a matter of fact, all spellcasters/manifesters that use offensive (rather than buffing) powers have a huge advantage in that situation. In my experience, it goes more like the following:

Encounter 1: Psion and Wizard blast everything
Encounter 2: Psion blasts everything, Wizard does ok
Encounter 3: Psion mostly exhausted, Wizard still blasting, Clerics and Druids still going strong
Encounter 4: Psion out, Wizard running out, Clerics and Druids taking front
Encounters 5-6: Cleric and Druid time
Encounters 7+: Even Cleric and Druid running out - time for the Fighters and Warlocks to shine.

Note that fake encounters (illusions, mooks disguised as BBEGs) can exhaust as much resources as real encounters, and that any smart BBEG will have some tricks - so the actual BBEG fight may just as easily be encounter #3 or 4, even if the party set out to fight them first thing.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
...Or significantly beef up the preparedness and potency of their opponents...

It is my understanding that one encounter with Tucker's legendary Kobolds is more than enough for most parties.

That still doesnt address the comparative worthlessness of other non-casters. The wizard can dump 2 spells a round, time stops, etc and go balls to the walls wahoo. The fighter gets to charge, make an attack or two, and be mediocre. Certain classes benefit from more challenges per day. IMO, while theres no right or wrong way to play, people really lose the right to whine about balance when they've thrown it out the window by their own choice.

I'd suggest ditching ALL conventional casters, and going something like a warlock, binder, dragon shaman etc if you're doing 1/day fights. Those classes are basically balanced the same in every combat, similar to the fighter, rogue, etc, whereas a cleric, wizard etc would have to conserve resources.
 

Another thought on psionics, compared to other types of magic: Psionics is more straightforward - that is - it's good at what it does, but it doesn't have all the niche uses and tricks of magic.

The first way this show up is the different types of powers - they're more balanced against each-other. In arcane/divine spellcasting, some types are weak (like direct damage), and some types are strong (like battlefield control). If you've played long enough with core spellcasting, you may come to accept this as normal. Then here comes psionics, where direct damage has been buffed up to spec and some other types have been weakened or even dropped entirely. If you're used to core magic, you might think this is an imbalance - but compare the actual utility.

The second thing is that powers, being straightforward, are often easier to use to their full potential, whereas spells may have hidden power that takes an experienced player to find. For instance, summoning. Many people say that Astral Construct is broken because astral constructs make better tanks than many summoned monsters (although not compared to SNA). However, can Astral Construct summon a creature with a ton of potent spell-like abilities, or spellcasting of it's own that's better than the caster who summoned it? Of course not - that's the hidden power of Summon Monster. But if you just look at the surface, you won't see that.

The third factor is the experienced player law. The EP Law is simply this: A more experienced player can make an effectively stronger character, regardless of class. This is a fundamental principal in all games. Therefore, the non-core corollary: Classes that require more experience (from being non-core and/or complex), will seem more powerful, because they attract more-experienced players. If psionics was core and Vancian magic was only found in the "Expanded Arcana Handbook", then I bet people would be complaining about how broken Wizards and Sorcerers were.


And final factor: The lone psion. If you run a totally non-psionic campaign, but have one PC be a psion, they'll be more powerful, just by virtue of being unique. Imagine a campaign where Druids didn't exist and nobody had heard of them, but one PC was a Druid. They'd be incredibly powerful - nobody would realize that they could turn into animals, so they'd usually be able to escape any captivity or spy on people totally undetected. Their spells would take people by surprise, as their foes would have no defense against Druid-only things like entangling vines. That's the same situation that happens with many Psions, which leads to DMs that think psionics is broken.

I'm not saying you should revamp the whole setting, just specify that there are a few other psions around, that the more knowledgable people know what psionics is and how to recognize a user of it, and that the BBEG could potentially hire (or be) a psion, or at least have psionic items like tattoos. Also, the "Psionics are Different" option is only a good idea if you're an experienced DM and very familiar with psionics. Otherwise, it can lead to all kinds of problems.
 
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hamishspence said:
The main issue is i#when you reach really high levels. A wizard has to have Improved Heighten, LOTS of Improved Spell Capacity feats, taken as often as possible, to do well against monsters with huge save bonuses. A psion can generate DC's (and damage) just as well as a maxed out killdozer wizard for NO feats bought at all. Very effective.

Psions tend to rely on DC. Wizards get no save/no SR effects at high levels.
 

IceFractal said:
If psionics was core and Vancian magic was only found in the "Expanded Arcana Handbook", then I bet people would be complaining about how broken Wizards and Sorcerers were.

I'm reasonably sure, that this would not be the case... they would just seem overly limited and weak and noone would play them. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Vurt said:
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was supposed to prove something here.

If someone has a point, then that's generally the thing they're supposed to prove. That's all I meant. :cool:

I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of whether or not adding psionics to one's game was worth the effort, not an argument for whether psionics is more uber than arcane magic. Haven't there been quite a few of those that noodled on forever and didn't really amount to anything? I seem to recall reading enough of them in the Rules forum.

The stated topic is pretty clear: comparing psionics to arcane magic. As for other threads, perhaps there have plenty of them in the past, but that hardly renders any further discussions moot for everyone else. Personally, I have only recently had my membership (and thus, the search feature) restored.

As to threads not amounting to anything, it's a rare thing for everyone to reach a single consensus in such debates. That doesn't mean they were a waste of time. Individuals read the posts and each come to their own conclusions.

In this case, I have heard some good arguements on both sides (though the pro-psion crowd seem to have a greater penchant for equivocation on the whole). I now understand, for instance, that generally the only effective way to detain or "peace-bond" a psion is to render him insensate. Something as simple as a grapple hampers a wizard, while a DM has to resort to something as esoteric as a "brain lock" to impede a psion.

Then again, someone else will read this thread and arrive at a different conclusion. Mileage will indeed vary.
 
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Psion said:
Psions tend to rely on DC. Wizards get no save/no SR effects at high levels.

...but also tend to rely on DC. If it can do a lot of damage or just kill you outright, it probably has a save. And if the save is made, the leftover effects are pretty mild (e.g. disintegrate, finger of death). The major exception would be power words (which are the big "no-save" attacks) and certain touch attacks, which typically inflict moderate damage.
 

ehren37 said:
The same is true of all casters, particularly with quickened spells. D&D isnt balanced for 1 fight a day games. If you run those, you should *SEVERELY* power down any casting class. When you can lob your best level spells every round of the only fight, theres little reason to play anything else.

QFT. Certainly a barbarian or cleric can outshine many a fighter routinely if there's only a single battle or two per day.
 

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