How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[Ridley's Cohort]

I'm a bit skeptical of the contention that the psion is more effective in a one encounter/day basis than the wizard is:

...

The difference is a lot of psionic Powers can be manifested as a Swift/Quickened action for +6 PPs spent. So the Psion and Psychic Warriors have immense potential to tear through PPs for a little more combat potency.

So a Psion in combat might do this:
Prep round: Swift 2nd level Power + 5th level Power
Round 1: Swift 2nd level Power + 5th level Power
Round 2: 5th level Power
etc.

After 6 rounds of combat the Psion has burned to ~80% of his resources for the day manifesting the equivalent of eight 5th level spells. Now in some situations a savvy Wizard may well be able to hold his own -- the difference is not always going to be significant. But in other situations it would be like comparing a normal Wizard with a Wizard wielding a Rod of Quickened Metamagic.

 

[Felon]

Not really, in my opinion. Sorcerers have an easy time of it. Sorcerers are designed to cherry-pick the best spells.

My experience playing a sorcerer has been differed radically from your estimation. There are more "best" spells to cherry-pick than a sorcerer is allowed to have. When a sorcerer hits 4th level, does he pick something defensive like invisibility, mirror image, or levitate, or something offensive like web, summon monster II, or scorching ray (and that's hardly an exhaustive list)? Add in those supplements that you say grant arcanists more flexibility, and then the anguish is compounded: baleful transposition, cloud of knives, dimension hop, flameburst, seeking ray, or stay the hand? The only thing that provides any relief is the occasional wand.

Speaking of wands, is there the equivalent of wands and staves for psionicists? If not, I'd say that's a major advantage for arcanists right there. I've seen plenty of campaigns where it's a rare thing for an arcanist to actually tap his personal allotment of spells.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, there are psionic equivalants to pretty much all magic item types; some work slightly different, but overall it's a wash.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah but I'd like to see a psionic equilivant of say Crenshibon or even Glamdring.

 

[wildstarsreach]

They are definitely to be labeled as 'problematic'.

Edited: Good points.

If you really like the psionics from a flavor point of view (or totally hate the 'vancian magic', or have munchkinny tendencies ), it might be worth a look, otherwise I don't think so.

Bye
Thanee

Being insulting isn't the goal here. Overall, psionics are easier once you learn the system. I love wizards but they do require a lot of thought on spell planning ranging from what you compatriots can do to what information on upcoming encounters that you can IC gleen from the DM. With Psionics, you just have to worry about you.

 

[wildstarsreach]

My experience playing a sorcerer has been differed radically from your estimation. There are more "best" spells to cherry-pick than a sorcerer is allowed to have. When a sorcerer hits 4th level, does he pick something defensive like invisibility, mirror image, or levitate, or something offensive like web, summon monster II, or scorching ray (and that's hardly an exhaustive list)? Add in those supplements that you say grant arcanists more flexibility, and then the anguish is compounded: baleful transposition, cloud of knives, dimension hop, flameburst, seeking ray, or stay the hand? The only thing that provides any relief is the occasional wand.

Speaking of wands, is there the equivalent of wands and staves for psionicists? If not, I'd say that's a major advantage for arcanists right there. I've seen plenty of campaigns where it's a rare thing for an arcanist to actually tap his personal allotment of spells.

Dorjes for Wands.
Psicrowns for Staves.

 

[wildstarsreach]

The difference is a lot of psionic Powers can be manifested as a Swift/Quickened action for +6 PPs spent. So the Psion and Psychic Warriors have immense potential to tear through PPs for a little more combat potency.

So a Psion in combat might do this:
Prep round: Swift 2nd level Power + 5th level Power
Round 1: Swift 2nd level Power + 5th level Power
Round 2: 5th level Power
etc.

After 6 rounds of combat the Psion has burned to ~80% of his resources for the day manifesting the equivalent of eight 5th level spells. Now in some situations a savvy Wizard may well be able to hold his own -- the difference is not always going to be significant. But in other situations it would be like comparing a normal Wizard with a Wizard wielding a Rod of Quickened Metamagic.

It can go faster when you get Temporal Acceleration and or Schism.

 

[wildstarsreach]

If you go all out super nova, almost nothing can beat a psion with this except a good well balanced party. Psions make great NPC opponents. They are good PC's. If you have to stretch out your points for many encounters, then they are comparable to wizards. The advantage is like drugs, it's hard to stop. To overdo is so easy.

Wizards can apply multiple metamagic feats to a spell. They have metamagic items that can apply to spells. No psionic items to date that can do that. Psions can get up to Metapsionic feats if they take the feat psicrystal containment and psicrystal affinity. It takes two feats to be able to apply multiple feats because of the limits of a psionic focus. The advantage is that feats can be done to whatever power up to the manifester level of the psion.

Yes, psions have definite advantages but they also have drawback. I love psionics but I do admit that there are some tweaks that need to be made. But 3.5 ed psionics does work better than any of the previous ed.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Another thought on psionics, compared to other types of magic: Psionics is more straightforward - that is - it's good at what it does, but it doesn't have all the niche uses and tricks of magic.

This is why it is generally easier. They are straight forward.

The first way this show up is the different types of powers - they're more balanced against each-other. In arcane/divine spellcasting, some types are weak (like direct damage), and some types are strong (like battlefield control). If you've played long enough with core spellcasting, you may come to accept this as normal. Then here comes psionics, where direct damage has been buffed up to spec and some other types have been weakened or even dropped entirely. If you're used to core magic, you might think this is an imbalance - but compare the actual utility.

If you add a lot of the spells from the spell compendium, then wizards pick up a lot. The imbalance is neutralized.

The second thing is that powers, being straightforward, are often easier to use to their full potential, whereas spells may have hidden power that takes an experienced player to find. For instance, summoning. Many people say that Astral Construct is broken because astral constructs make better tanks than many summoned monsters (although not compared to SNA). However, can Astral Construct summon a creature with a ton of potent spell-like abilities, or spellcasting of it's own that's better than the caster who summoned it? Of course not - that's the hidden power of Summon Monster. But if you just look at the surface, you won't see that.

Astral contruct is very useful in that you can tailor the construct to what you need. If you take boost construct, you get many abilities that make the single construct equal to the 1d3 or 1d4 summonned creatures. I currently run a shaper. I've previously run a Kalashtar Telepath/Wizard/Cerebremancer to 20th level.

The third factor is the experienced player law. The EP Law is simply this: A more experienced player can make an effectively stronger character, regardless of class. This is a fundamental principal in all games. Therefore, the non-core corollary: Classes that require more experience (from being non-core and/or complex), will seem more powerful, because they attract more-experienced players. If psionics was core and Vancian magic was only found in the "Expanded Arcana Handbook", then I bet people would be complaining about how broken Wizards and Sorcerers were.

True, the vacian system requires thought and you know, as much as I have loved wizards over the years, sometimes I want that straight forward approach. It's easy but there are times in which I also want the power that a well built and run wizard can do.

And final factor: The lone psion. If you run a totally non-psionic campaign, but have one PC be a psion, they'll be more powerful, just by virtue of being unique. Imagine a campaign where Druids didn't exist and nobody had heard of them, but one PC was a Druid. They'd be incredibly powerful - nobody would realize that they could turn into animals, so they'd usually be able to escape any captivity or spy on people totally undetected. Their spells would take people by surprise, as their foes would have no defense against Druid-only things like entangling vines. That's the same situation that happens with many Psions, which leads to DMs that think psionics is broken.

True, True True.

I'm not saying you should revamp the whole setting, just specify that there are a few other psions around, that the more knowledgable people know what psionics is and how to recognize a user of it, and that the BBEG could potentially hire (or be) a psion, or at least have psionic items like tattoos. Also, the "Psionics are Different" option is only a good idea if you're an experienced DM and very familiar with psionics. Otherwise, it can lead to all kinds of problems.

Unfortunately my DM uses only one part of psionics magic transparancy, if a creature has SR, it automatically has PR.

A psion cannot unlearn a power unlike a sorcerer can. Or a wizard learn/research a new spell.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Thanks! That's another one I missed!




I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was supposed to prove something here. I thought this was supposed to be a discussion of whether or not adding psionics to one's game was worth the effort, not an argument for whether psionics is more uber than arcane magic. Haven't there been quite a few of those that noodled on forever and didn't really amount to anything? I seem to recall reading enough of them in the Rules forum.

So what if a psion can manifest while grappled? It doesn't mean the character can't be challenged in some other way, and I simply went to the effort of pointing out what some of those were.

Do I feel that psionics are superior to arcane magic? Probably not, simply owing to the sheer number and variety of arcane spells available. And even if it were, it's not a big deal.

The big deal is whether or not everyone is having fun at the table, psions and arcane casters alike. And to me that means challenging everyone appropriately. Maybe that's grappling the wizard and brain locking the psion instead of grappling them both. As a DM, this isn't a big deal, as there are options available to me.

Are psions perfectly balanced with wizards? In my opinion, absolutely not. But by the same token, neither of them are perfectly balanced with bards. If in your game psions rule the roost, then likely you'll never see another wizard played again, just like I've never seen a bard. Your milage may vary.

Cheers,
Vurt

He still needs to make a concentration check but since he doesn't have V, S or M that wizards have, most times he can use his psionics and mostlikely escape.