How do Saga skills work?

[Klaus]

Could you link this, please?

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204291

 

[Raven Crowking]

Thank you. You are a scholar and a gentleman.

RC

 

[Mercule]

I'll have to wait and see with the 4E skill system. I very much would like to see a tumbling, diplomatic swashbuckler being able to be built from fighter-only (no multiclassing), so I hope either that Tumble and Diplomacy are on the fighter list, or that there is a way to grab cross-class skills.

From the above math, I think the +3/+3 is more to my liking than +5/+5, but I don't know what all modifiers will be available or what the DC range will be.

 

[Jeph]

What determines how many trained skills a multiclass character has?

Like, suppose 4e uses Saga's system, the Rogue gets 8+int trained skills, and the Fighter gets 2+int trained skills. You're playing a 14 Int character.

How many trained skills from which class lists do you have if you take your first level in Rogue and your second in Fighter? Or if you take your first level in Fighter and your second level in Rogue?

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

At first level, you pick all your trained skills. So, if you're a Scoundrel 1, you get 4 + Int mod Trained skills (+1 if you're human). You do not gain any more trained skills as you level up, unless you:

a) take the skill training feat
b) boost your intelligence mod

So say Scoundrel 1 takes his next level in Soldier. His trained skills remain the same. However, at 4th level he boosts his Int from 11 to 12. He can now choose an extra Trained skill, from either the scoundrel or soldier list. He figures knowing a thing or two about patching people up is good, so he grabs Treat Injury from the Soldier list.

Also note that Skill Training is a bonus feat for every base class, so if you really need to be trained in a skill past Level 1, it's not hard to do.

 

[KarinsDad]

Whoah, there. Feats don't grow on trees. If the rogue decided to take both skill training AND skill focus, and the wizard is a lot less dexterous than the rogue then I'd say that's a pretty fair spread.

Take the skill focus away from the rogue (after all, he's not gonna have it in every feat) and give the wizard at least some decent hand-eye coordination (dex 12) and you have a +8 vs. a +1. That's a pretty reasonable spread. You're using an extreme case, which you won't see in practice all THAT often.

Actually, feats will grow on trees in 4E.

They will probably average almost one per level.

A 30th level PC in SWSE (assuming SWSE went to 30th level like 4E does) has 26 feats (and 15 Talents). It is extremely likely that 4E will work the same way. 3E has a minimum of 11 feats at 30th level, 4E will most likely have ~26. That's over twice as many.

So no, it is not an extreme case if 4E does the every other level feat system plus normal feats of SWSE. In SWSE, a character gains a feat at every level from 1 to 4 (assuming he does not multiclass).

It will be the extremely COMMON case. Every character, even NPCs, will do this.

 

[Klaus]

At first level, you pick all your trained skills. So, if you're a Scoundrel 1, you get 4 + Int mod Trained skills (+1 if you're human). You do not gain any more trained skills as you level up, unless you:

a) take the skill training feat
b) boost your intelligence mod

So say Scoundrel 1 takes his next level in Soldier. His trained skills remain the same. However, at 4th level he boosts his Int from 11 to 12. He can now choose an extra Trained skill, from either the scoundrel or soldier list. He figures knowing a thing or two about patching people up is good, so he grabs Treat Injury from the Soldier list.

Also note that Skill Training is a bonus feat for every base class, so if you really need to be trained in a skill past Level 1, it's not hard to do.

Yeah, using this, it's not impossible to have a skill-monkey character that is trained in all skills.

 

[SteveC]

It doesn't.

That's the one part which needs fixing I think.

In Saga, there's no way to get Trained in cross-class skills. So to get an out-of-class skill, you need to do two things: multi-class, and then take a feat.

I'd like it if there were some choice when you multi-class -- like, you get a starting Talent OR you get Trained in two class skills.

Cheers, -- N

Back to agreeing! Yes, this is exactly what I've done in my (brief) game. Works like a charm. The basic idea is that when you multiclass, you don't get all of the bennies of the other class...you start with one talent or other ability. I just extrapolated from there.

--Steve

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

At first level, you pick all your trained skills. So, if you're a Scoundrel 1, you get 4 + Int mod Trained skills (+1 if you're human). You do not gain any more trained skills as you level up, unless you:

a) take the skill training feat
b) boost your intelligence mod

So say Scoundrel 1 takes his next level in Soldier. His trained skills remain the same. However, at 4th level he boosts his Int from 11 to 12. He can now choose an extra Trained skill, from either the scoundrel or soldier list. He figures knowing a thing or two about patching people up is good, so he grabs Treat Injury from the Soldier list.

Also note that Skill Training is a bonus feat for every base class, so if you really need to be trained in a skill past Level 1, it's not hard to do.

Note also: Each class gets several bonus feats, and multiclassing gets you only one of them. And since you get triple hitpoits at 1st level, this difference between classes will also always hold.
Classes that get a lot of initial skills also have less bonus feats, less hit points and a lower attack bonus.

 

[KarinsDad]

Regarding opposed checks (because I agree that's where the interesting things happen), let's let all ties go to the PCs. That way we'll see the WORST it could be, right?

Perception vs. Stealth at 1st level, for PCs (A1, B1, C1, D1) vs. NPC Shlub (S1):

A1 (+13) vs. S1 (+0): 5.25% chance of PC failure
B1 (+7) vs. S1 (+0): 19.5% chance of PC failure
C1 (+2) vs. S1 (+0): 38.25% chance of PC failure
D1 (-4) vs. S1 (+0): 70% chance of PC failure

However, a party has five PCs. Let's say they're all type A1 specialists, just for kicks. Now the chance all five of them will make their Stealth checks is (.9475)^5 = 76.37%. That's only 3:1 odds that the party will succeed, despite a very significant resource outlay to get a ~95% chance of individual success.

This is an extreme example.

All 5 PCs must make the opposed roll for the party to succeed.

This is no different than at least 1 PC out of 5 must make the opposed perception roll to spot a hidden enemy.

These are opposite extremes. Although they can happen in a game, some DMs house rule that not everyone gets to roll in these types of cases. The reason is that with 5 rolls against 1, typically someone is bound to win the majority of the time.

The game needs some form of "bonus" rules or something to handle these cases. This is a generic mathematical problem of nearly all RPGs that very few companies come up with rules for.

So, it shouldn't be used to illustrate a point in either direction since it really doesn't illustrate anything except a flaw in the rules.

The base way to illustrate the point is to compare the opposed skill roll math from a single character to another and vary the capabilities of each to see how differing capabilities changes the math. If the same level "best at x" versus the "worst at y" comes up with near 90% chance of success, the system is flawed. We're talking same level here, not different level. The problem gets worse when throwing in different levels.

When talking 70% to 90% chance of success for same level, the adventuring Wizard is still screwed, even though he has been doing this "look up at the ceiling stuff" for years. He really learned nothing in all that time because the bad guys are still so much better than him in this area.

It's too big of a delta.