How do Saga skills work?

[FadedC]

Regarding party success, I'm not sure how often you actually need it. Most of the time it's fine if a few people succeed and a few people fail. The only times I can think of party success as being necesary is if the entire party is trying to sneak in somewhere without the use of magic....something I don't see often in D&D with all the bulky heavy armor fighters and clerics running around.

For the power of skill focus, for the current +3 version I rarely actually see anybody take it, either in home campaigns or the gazillion Living Greyhawk characters I've seen. If +5 makes people actually consider taking the feat then that would be a good thing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Extremely common in my experience. Spot / Listen see use in over 70% of the encounters I've run (at least once), and see multiple uses in at least 20%, though I've paid much less attention to tracking that.

What's extreme is the effort required to even get a 75% chance of party success.

I'm not disputing the utility of perception type skills.

I do dispute that the success rate should be so high for the entire party at the same level.

And what's worse is that in 4e, we're to expect a 4:1 ratio of bad guys to PCs. So it's no longer 5 must beat 1, it's 5 must beat 20. That's a recipe for failure if you don't have a 100% chance of success against each of those 20.

Where do you get this 4:1 ratio of bad guys to PCs?

From what I have read, they want it to be 1:1. Do you have a quote?

Agree, but IMHO that's orthogonal.

It's not orthogonal to discussing potential new skill rules. It's key.

*shrug* Opposed skill checks are important. The other opposed check is going to be skill vs. the various Defenses, which will be very easy at low level and very hard at high level.

Totally agreed. As the SWSE rules are currently written, one cannot use a skill against a defense or the whole thing falls apart. One has to use skills against opposed skills.

Defense = 10 + level + ability modifier
Skill = D20 + level/2 + ability modifier + 10 (assuming trained and skill focus)

or reducing this:

Defense = level
Skill = D20 + level/2

At 1st level, this means one has to roll a one. At 30th level, one has to roll a 15.

As you noted, the math for this just does not work. At all.

If the designers want skills versus defenses, the reduction should be either:

Defense = 10 + level/2
Skill = D20 + level/2

or:

Defense = 10 + level
Skill = D20 + level

I prefer the first (since it means that mooks several levels lower are still challenges and BBEGs several levels higher are not overwhelming), but the second would be semi-ok.

Why? Why is it bad for someone who's good at something to succeed against someone who sucks at that same thing? I feel like I'm missing something very important here.

It's how often they succeed, not that they succeed.

The entire premise of SWSE is that people improve slightly in skills, even if they are not trained to use them. Btw, I like this premise a lot. Taking this to 4E, the Wizard is not trained in Perception. But, he's been in 2318 different dungeons. He is so experience in dungeon crawling day in and day out that he should be super perceptive. Not as perceptive as the Rogue, but still good at it.

At 30th level, the Wizard is +17. That's a nice solid modifier. On the surface, it sounds good. He notices a lot of stuff. Except he almost never notices the 30th level monster with the Hide skill trained and focused. The Monster is +30 and the Wizard only sees him <20% of the time.

Just like 20th level bad saves in 3.5, it just ain't gonna happen.

Now suddenly, there are 4 monsters instead of 1 and 5 PCs. The 5 PCs will almost always see these super hidden monsters unless the rules are changed.

So, there are two issues here. The chance of an individual spotting (which is too low) and the chance of a group spotting a group (which is too high). The two problems tug at each other because one is in support of making the chance worse and the other at making it better.

 

[szilard]

I just hope that the skill system in 43 is more customizable that SWSE. I found it very difficult to make a SWSE character that matched what I had in my head due to the fact that you can only be trained in skills that are not on your initial class list by a combination of multiclassing and feats.

I just wanted to make a Jedi who was good at the Bluff skill... is that so wrong?

-Stuart

 

[Nifft]

Where do you get this 4:1 ratio of bad guys to PCs?

From what I have read, they want it to be 1:1. Do you have a quote?

Just something I thought I remembered from an earlier thread. I could easily be mistaken.

I think the point stands even with 4 vs. 4.

It's not orthogonal to discussing potential new skill rules. It's key.

Okay. I agree that we need better group rules for these situations, so let's move on.

We've sort-of talked about Tumble and Perception/Stealth, and I made a point about Climb way back when... let's dig into the biggest peeve I have with the current D&D rules.

Let's talk Diplomacy.

Totally agreed. As the SWSE rules are currently written, one cannot use a skill against a defense or the whole thing falls apart. One has to use skills against opposed skills.

Defense = 10 + level + ability modifier
Skill = D20 + level/2 + ability modifier + 10 (assuming trained and skill focus)

or reducing this:

Defense = level
Skill = D20 + level/2

At 1st level, this means one has to roll a one. At 30th level, one has to roll a 15.

As you noted, the math for this just does not work. At all.

Weeeeeeeeeell... kinda. If we're talking fixed effects across levels, I totally agree with you. But I'm in the midst of designing a spellcasting system based on SW Saga defenses, a Use Magic skill, and various effects, and what I'm finding is that the system works if you scale the effects with level to match the expected difference between skill and defense. (This also means it's often not worth taking Skill Focus until mid-level; and you can avoid effects which target Defenses with skill checks, too, so you can get away with just plain Training and a low Charisma, you just can't be an Enchanter or Evoker type.)

At low levels, you should not be allowed to target Defenses with Use Magic often. At high levels, you should be able to wipe out mooks easily, but it should cost you an action which you could otherwise use to target the boss -- in other words, the effect that wipes mooks should be ineffective against your level-contemporaries.

But that's mostly, because I'm not done yet. The only point I want to make is that just because you may be able to beat a Defense with a skill check, that's not a guarantee doing so benefits you in any material way. You need an effect based off that skill check, and those can be limited separately.

The entire premise of SWSE is that people improve slightly in skills, even if they are not trained to use them. Btw, I like this premise a lot. Taking this to 4E, the Wizard is not trained in Perception. But, he's been in 2318 different dungeons. He is so experience in dungeon crawling day in and day out that he should be super perceptive. Not as perceptive as the Rogue, but still good at it.

At 30th level, the Wizard is +17. That's a nice solid modifier. On the surface, it sounds good. He notices a lot of stuff. Except he almost never notices the 30th level monster with the Hide skill trained and focused. The Monster is +30 and the Wizard only sees him <20% of the time.

That's fine, though, isn't it? It means that the 20th level Wizard isn't surprised by mook assassins, even specialized mooks, but against a Master Assassin he's only got a slim chance.

But that's why he's not alone. The 20th level Ranger's Perception ought to be up to the task of spotting the Master Assassin's ambush about 50% of the time.

- - -

IMHO this is a solid improvement over the current 3.5e rules, where a 10th level Rogue can easily hide from a 20th level Wizard -- particularly if the Rogue has a nice magic item or two.

Now suddenly, there are 4 monsters instead of 1 and 5 PCs. The 5 PCs will almost always see these super hidden monsters unless the rules are changed.

Yeah, we're agreed that something must be done about groups.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Raven Crowking]

Also remember that we designed the skill system in Saga so that, when you reach 20th level and are fighting the Sith Lord, it makes more sense for you to whip out your lightsaber and have a climactic duel than it does to just use move object to throw him off of one of the many no-handrails walkways that populate the SW universe.

Any time a designer says "This is the type of action we want in the game, therefore these rules are designed to reward that type of action" a erinyes gets her wings......

(That's a good thing, BTW)

 

[Tinker Gnome]

What are Talents in Saga?

 

[Nifft]

What are Talents in Saga?

Like Feats, but better. (Tier 2 Feats, basically.) They're class-specific, so in a way they are the choose-your-own buffet-style feat trees of class features.

There are also Force Talents, which any Force user (i.e. Jedi or weirdo) can pick up in place of a class Talent.

You get a Talent every odd (class) level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[drothgery]

I just hope that the skill system in 43 is more customizable that SWSE. I found it very difficult to make a SWSE character that matched what I had in my head due to the fact that you can only be trained in skills that are not on your initial class list by a combination of multiclassing and feats.

I just wanted to make a Jedi who was good at the Bluff skill... is that so wrong?

No. But why is it hurting your brain so much that you have to multiclass to do so (or just take the Force Persuasion talent and fake it, or just get by on the high Cha you probably have anyway and the standard 1/2 level bonus)?

 

[KarinsDad]

Let's talk Diplomacy.

Ok.

You start (since you seem to have something you want to discuss about it).

 

[Tinker Gnome]

Like Feats, but better. (Tier 2 Feats, basically.) They're class-specific, so in a way they are the choose-your-own buffet-style feat trees of class features.

There are also Force Talents, which any Force user (i.e. Jedi or weirdo) can pick up in place of a class Talent.

You get a Talent every odd (class) level.

Cheers, -- N

Thanks.