D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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I again turn to my "degenerative disease (such as cancer) is a dysfunction of cellular machinery" analogy. Cancer is what happens when cells cease to follow the "I'm part of a multicellular life form" model and instead begin to realign toward an "I'm a single-celled life form" model.

Certain people will have a high personal risk of developing cancer (e.g., those who have a family history of certain cancers), while others will have a low risk. Certain materials (foods, additives, consumables like cigarettes, construction materials like asbestos) have a quotient of cancer-liability, which we usually call "being w cercinogen." I want to stress that they don't contain cancer, cancer can ONLY occur in living cells.

Etc. I doubt I need to spell out the whole argument here. The fact that people don't randomly eat food or smoke or fly in airplanes (social and familial patterns exist) doesn't diminish the fact that tobacco smoke or continuously going to get a tan massively increases your risk of cancer, to the point of "it's less if and more when." The fact that some folks have a naturally lower risk of developing cancer is irrelevant to whether compounds can be carcinogenic. It matters for whether an individual person will develop cancer, which is of vital importance for managing health especially as we age. The fact that some folks can expose themselves to all sorts of carcinogens and die of "old age" rather than developing cancer is similarly irrelevant to whether substances or activities can be carcinogenic. It would be foolish in the extreme to conclude from these facts that diet, activities, and environment can be neglected.

Some rules have extremely high risk for MMI, but have or develop strong protection against these concerns. Some of these protections are formal and enforced, albeit not part of the mechanics themselves, analogous to nurses limiting the amount of X-ray exposure someone experiences as a result of medical examinations. Some of them are informal but highly recommend, analogous making sure to put on sunscreen if you're going to be out in the summer sun for an extended period and wearing a good hat that can protect your scalp. And some are a lot fuzzier and dependent on people being vigilant about small details that can easily be missed, analogous to being really careful about one's diet or the like. Finally, some may be entirely tacit and presumed, like smoking being generally understood to be bad for the smoker now (to the point that it is now used as a trope to indicate that a character does not care about their safety or well-being.)

Meanwhile, other systems are less susceptible to MMI because of their design. MMI depends on faults in communication (usually centered on deficient understanding of expectations, as you noted), sustained concentration of authority in a single specific participant, and an inability to address or correct issues other than by interrogating that authority. There may be other factors, but those seem to be the salient ones. This, a system which explicitly requires steps that contradict these things will avert or even eliminate MMI. If communication is heavily required simply to play the game, you will already cut off a lot of these risks. If authority is explicitly shared, then you forestall anyone becoming a "mother" in the first place; this sharing does not need to be symmetrical either, it just needs to be sufficiently complementary such that each participant has agency and a clear part to play in the process. If the game provides pre-defined structures and options which enable the lower authority participants ("players") to deal with and respond to issues without having to always jump through invisible hoops, then the "may I" side is curtailed, e.g. things like the X-card for meta level issues and things like spells or powers for IC situations. These rules design elements are separate from, but work in tandem with, the aforementioned policies, procedures, etc. that a game can develop to defend itself against this type of dysfunction.

I find that 5e does little to nothing of any of these actually-in-the-rules defenses against MMI, and in fact tends to go out of its way to avoid or undercut them. It encourages DMs to avoid direct communication, to conceal things and play fast and loose with what has been communicated. The game absolutely pushes the DM as the central and all-encompassing authority, with little to no cyclic exchange of authority and a strong emphasis on "you ask me, then I tell you" DMing. Other than spellcasting, which as in pre-4e editions is essentially the one bastion of respected player influence, everything is left so deeply in "ask your DM" territory that the rules themselves are reduced to suggestions.

Further, I find that of the non-mechanical policies, procedures, etc. that are meant to mitigate these issues, none of them are of the first two types. There are no formal steps for addressing these concerns outside of the rules, and at best minimal informal but highly recommended steps. Instead, it relies almost entirely on DM vigilance, players being willing to speak out, and the presumption that if something goes wrong, the DM will fix it.

That, to my mind, is exactly the recipe for a game to be rife with MMI problems. Both game design and game policy have had every formal, shared, open structure for addressing this issue removed or downplayed as much as humanly possible, leaving only soft-touch options, implications and social contract stuff, which is really, really easy to screw up or forget about or go overboard with.

And, as a result, I now have a better response for something mentioned upthread.


My problem is, as I have only now realized, these DMs are putting the cart before the horse. They have confused cause and effect.

The fundamental underlying cause is, as they have noted, the hyperdependence on DMs to fix everything, everywhere, all at once, to be the clearinghouse, to adjudicate everything all the time. Initially, this led to a resurgence of what I'll call "Lite Viking Hat" DMing, in that it's still a dictatorship of the DM, but it was viewed as a liberation from stifling confinement "so things can finally get done," as it were, rather than the declaration of martial law. But all too quickly, this led to poor behavior on the part of DMs, and unfortunately, the old-timers collectively provided no help on this front. As this person notes (and as I have highlighted many times), the DM side of the culture of play was radically unhelpful; every rules-question thread would almost instantly get a ("We can't help you, ask your DM"/)"I am the DM and want help"/"You're the DM! Just do whatever you like!" interaction. This repeatedly reinforced on a cultural level that the DM should do whatever they like, whenever they like, for as long as they like.

This hit a problem when D&D started growing a fanbase much, much larger than the old one. Because the new players are not conditioned to meekly defer. They have no reason to; if they wanted to meekly defer to ironclad determinations, they could go play WoW or FFXIV or Elden Ring or whatever else. So they advocate for themselves. They talk back. When they're pushed, they lay down requests, and they do get upset when their requests are ignored or overruled, and they cry foul at the level of social contract and interpersonal respect. They have to. There is no other level to which they can appeal; the rules are but suggestions, the culture of play is DM power über alles, and the principles (and other policies/procedures) have been intentionally gutted of any formal content that can be drawn upon or referenced.

The fans of the oldest school stuff have gotten exactly what they asked for. You only have conversation between adults as the solution to any problem. The DM is the absolute, unquestioned and unquestionable, universal, unilateral authority, with the game being but her plaything to use or break as she sees fit. All game function exists solely on and by her will. And now a number of people are finding that no, players-in-general are not particularly happy with that state of affairs. Worse, when things go wrong, to their shock and horror, the consequences fall upon the person with all the power, the DM.
As I don't accept the premise that MMI is analogous to cancer, any conclusions from that analogy are suspect. The analogy misleads.
 

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As I don't accept the premise that MMI is analogous to cancer, any conclusions from that analogy are suspect. The analogy misleads.
See above. It seems to cover numerous salient details people have specifically brought up. It captures these details in an efficient manner. And we seem to agree on the fundamental notion of dysfunction, which is why I chose it in the first place (cancer is a dysfunction of cellular activity in the context of multicellular life forms; MMI is a dysfunction of gaming activity in the context of cooperative multiplayer roleplaying games.)

If the analogy is flawed, please say why, rather than just saying it's bad. It seems to work. If it does not, why not? Likewise, if we agree this is a dysfunction, why is comparing it to other dysfunctions insulting?
 

I'm not at all convinced that MMI is an useful term, but the general feeling seem to be invoked by instances in which the player feels that the GM is making decisions regarding task resolution erratically or arbitrarily. So the notion that feeling of MMI is caused by misaligned expectations seems correct, however, we could also examine reasons why expectations might be misaligned.

It certainly is true that D&D 5e puts a lot of power in the GM's hands. Unlike some people, I don't think this in itself is a problem. However, it matters greatly how that power is used. I think it is very important for the GM to be consistent. Also, when possible, they should endeavour to provide the players with sufficient information so that they can make informed decisions. If these criteria are not met, it indeed might seem to the players that the GM's decisions are arbitrary.

Now where I suspect 5e might be lacking is providing the GM with sufficient guidance to achieve this. I also believe this is the same reason where some of the GM frustrations mentioned earlier stem from. The questions like what's the appropriate DC for X, how many checks in total should extended task Y take and how that affects the odds, how to foreshadow or use "soft moves" or indeed even how armour affects swimming are all things that the DMG could have spent more pages on. And of course there can never be exhaustive list of everything that can come up in a game, we all know that, but providing some established structure helps with consistently extrapolating more.

I don't feel I personally have much problems regarding stuff like this, but I am also quite aware that I have imported my decades of GMing experience and my own internalised principles into this game.
 
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To summarise this:

* What might look like rules in 5e D&D are widely treated as suggestions to the GM as to how to decide what happens next;​
* What might look like player-side moves in 5e D&D (ie action declarations for PCs) are widely treated as suggestions to the GM as to how to decide what happens next;​
* The only determiner of what suggestions get taken up is social contract;​
* Thus, if players don't like what the GM tells them happens next this creates immediate social contract pressure/escalation, that falls on the GM who made the decision in relation to what was suggested;​
* Furthermore, many contemporary players have strong, non-deferential, non-"Viking hat"-tolerant preferences for what happens next (ie they are neo-trad, not trad);​
* Thus, this social contract pressure/escalation is becoming more common.​

To me this seems plausible. Upthread I've made some suggestions - about drawing on principles I regard as implicit in 5e - that might ameliorate the first two points. Whether the resulting play will please neo-tradders I'm not sure. Maybe some of them really need to switch to Fate!
I've been thinking over the plausibility part. I can find three threads about MMI in 5e. One is from 2012 which I think implies it is about playtest content. The next is 2016 and focuses on skills. The third is this one. Given that 5e is by orders of magnitude the most played TTRPG, where is the predicted clamour about MMI?

Speculatively, what we see is a wide spectrum of cultures of play, and participant purposes and concerns. As you say, some do want more agency all along the chain. Apparently others do not. Of those that do, some seem able to achieve what they want within DM-curated rulesets (as my theory would predict.)


EDIT Also found one Twitter thread, from 2021.
 
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I've been thinking over the plausibility part. I can find three threads about MMI in 5e. One is from 2012 which I think implies it is about playtest content. The next is 2016 and focuses on skills. The third is this one. Given that 5e is by orders of magnitude the most played TTRPG, where is the predicted clamour about MMI?

Speculatively, what we see is a wide spectrum of cultures of play, and participant purposes and concerns. As you say, some do want more agency all along the chain. Apparently others do not. Of those that do, some seem able to achieve what they want within DM-curated rulesets (as my theory would predict.)
Yet the tweets linked by Malmuria, and comments from Tetrasodium amongst others, indicate there does seem to be more of a problem than you're allowing for—because players have taken a different solution rather than resorting to "go online and complain." That is, they are standing up to the DM. They are accepting that the social contract is the only recourse, and actually using it, leading to DMs feeling browbeaten and coerced (a stance I still find incredibly silly, but much more understandable now.) And the problems that arise from this response are just as predictable as the ones arising from the 5e ruleset itself: many DMs feel cornered, unsupported, unmoored; they lash out, whether by insisting on their authority and re-emphasizing how central it is, or by going online and complaining about "entitled" players and how "impossible" it is to do things etc.; some even pine for the days when the system just worked, so they could do what they liked within that system and if players complained, they could point to the rules and say "I did everything by the book!"
 

Yet the tweets linked by Malmuria, and comments from Tetrasodium amongst others, indicate there does seem to be more of a problem than you're allowing for—because players have taken a different solution rather than resorting to "go online and complain." That is, they are standing up to the DM. They are accepting that the social contract is the only recourse, and actually using it, leading to DMs feeling browbeaten and coerced (a stance I still find incredibly silly, but much more understandable now.) And the problems that arise from this response are just as predictable as the ones arising from the 5e ruleset itself: many DMs feel cornered, unsupported, unmoored; they lash out, whether by insisting on their authority and re-emphasizing how central it is, or by going online and complaining about "entitled" players and how "impossible" it is to do things etc.; some even pine for the days when the system just worked, so they could do what they liked within that system and if players complained, they could point to the rules and say "I did everything by the book!"
Possibly just after you replied I edited to note the one twitter thread from 2021 that I was able to find.

EDIT So the idea then is that there is evidence of MMI, albeit it is found in the evidence of DM reaction to the (not observable itself) clamour?
 

Why? We agree that MMI is a dysfunction. We agree that it can only "actually happen" in the active state (play.) And we agree that risk factors, both thise inherent to particular things and those idiosyncratic to individuals being examined, contribute to that active state becoming dysfunctional.

If MMI really is inherently bad and inherently dysfunctional, as so many have argued here, why is the analogy offensive? If it captures all of these salient details in a clear and concise way, why is it a faulty analogy?
In your analogy isnt d&d the carcinogen?

P.S. When I first posted I assumed the problem with it would be obvious.
 
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In your analogy isnt d&d the carcinogen?
If you DM 5e, not only are you poisoning yourself, but you are poisoning people around you.

The position that it feels like some hope to reach - and I hope I am mistaken - is that MMI and 5e are essentially synonomous. It's hard to hold a conversation in good faith on those terms (as others have pointed out.)
 

If you DM 5e, not only are you poisoning yourself, but you are poisoning people around you.

The position that it feels like some hope to reach - and I hope I am mistaken - is that MMI and 5e are essentially synonomous. It's hard to hold a conversation in good faith on those terms (as others have pointed out.)
To be fair I think he just didn’t think through the implications. I think there were some decent insights in there but I don’t feel like it’s appropriate to give that analogy any fuel and I’m sure those same points can be brought forth in a better way.
 

In your analogy isnt d&d the carcinogen?

P.S. When I first posted I assumed the problem with it would be obvious.
The "carcinogen" would be the presence of things which encourage MMI and the absence of things which mitigate it.

Because 5e did not have to be every single thing it is. And it does not have to be the case that every part of it must be a problem just because *somez parts of it are.
 

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