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D&D 5E How do you define “mother may I” in relation to D&D 5E?

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
This is a valid question, and one that probably involves a little more communication and nuance than just a quick rundown, which is why I'm breaking this one question out into its own response. I've mentioned my answer to this in threads past, but don't mind talking about it again.

Going into it... the first question I would ask was how familiar you were with performance improvisation? Knowing us EN Worlders as we are... my guess is that you and probably most of us have at a minimum seen a few episodes of Whose Line Is It Anyway? and thus will recognize what I'm going to talk about (as they involve relatively standard improv jargon).

So with that being said... you are correct that I myself would not "need" game mechanics per se. I could (and have) completely improvised games and scenes and such-- usually on stage, but even at the game table (as something like Fiasco has the barest hint of game mechanics once the premise, characters, and relationships have been established, with the rest is primarily just freeform improv.) Obviously D&D is not that... as dice and rolling dice are a huge part of the game, as are concrete rules for adjudicating action. Now why would I play a game like D&D that indeed has and uses a lot of game mechanics when I don't really "need" them (or indeed find being beholden to them rather irritating at times?)

- Part of it is that it's the universal game system that everyone knows and thus is easier to get players for (just like everyone else finds to be true.)

- Part of it is that the "combat board game" part of D&D can be fun in its own right and I enjoy playing it. But I don't find the combat board game to be so great of a game that I need it to be the best board game there is-- and thus I don't get bent out of shape when any warts in the game show up. If some rules don't work and I need to make Rulings for them on occasion, whatever, that's fine, doesn't bother to me.

- And finally... part of using the "board game" of D&D is that the dice rolls take the place of an important and necessary part of scenework improvisation. When two actors are improvising a scene, in order to push a scene's story forward the actors have to build upon what has been established. The 'And' part of 'Yes, And'. The first actor makes a statement of fact within a scene, the second actor accepts this statement of fact as an agreed-upon truth of what is happening in this made-up scene... and then adds details to enlarge it, make the scene fuller, and push the story forward. The first actor then responds honestly to these additional details as being factual to this scene and then they too add more details. And that's how the scene will progress-- each actor accepting the truth of the other's statements and adding more truths on top of it, back and forth and back and forth until the scene reaches a conclusion (as determined by whatever format the improv is taking place in.)

But now in D&D... we have something extra. We no longer have to rely on just the two scene partners to add additional details to the facts of what is happening... we have a Dungeon Master and even more importantly, dice rolls to add additional truths to this scene. If the first actor makes the improv offer of "I'm attacking the orc with my sword!"... the second actor (in this case, the DM) could just state as their "And"... "You stab the orc in the chest and it falls down dead!" Perfectly logical and reasonable "Yes, And" response. Maybe not that interesting or compelling... but it's quick, it's easy, and the scene can now move forward with what happens with the first actor standing now over a dead orc.

However... doing it in this way doesn't make it much of a game. So rather than the second actor DM making an ad hoc "Yes And" response of saying "Orc's dead! You killed him!"... we use the dice to give us the response instead. It takes the burden of "Yes And"ing the scene offer off of the DM and puts it on the dice roll. The dice roll gives us our "And". Yes, the attack roll hits... And... the attack does 5 points of damage... And... the orc now takes their turn and moves over here... And... the orc swings it's axe at the ranger and hits... And... the swing does 10 point of damage... And... it turns out the axe was poisoned, so there's a chance the ranger might slow down their movement because of the poison... And... the ranger failed their saving throw so the ranger is now slowed... And... the ranger on his turn decides to take out a dose of antitoxin and drink it... And... And... And... and so forth.

These are all things that the two actors could just completely make up and offer up to each other back and forth in the scene if they wanted to. They could completely improvise the whole battle, giving and taking highs and lows, building off each other's actions to create really thrilling drama. But... that can be difficult. And tiring. And sometimes even less creative. Which is why pushing off some of these things onto the dice to dictate what happens can be very helpful, very original, and sometimes even more exciting (because now neither actor knows what is coming up.)

But this is also why I'm not so beholden to the dice... because they are only just an addition to the work we at the table are already doing, they aren't the work itself. The dice add color to the scene, they add results to a scene we might not have thought of ourselves had we just been doing straight improv, and they allow us to win-- and more importantly, lose-- as a surprise to us all. If it was straight improv, an actor would have to make the choice to lose by offering up the losing scenario (and the other actors agreeing to it). But that can be exceedingly hard... arbitrarily deciding in the middle of a combat scene "You know what? I'm going to fall unconscious now"... knowing you are taking yourself out of the fun of the scene. No one wants to leave the scene if it's fun! They want to keep playing! And so... we let the dice push us in that way. Let the dice make the offer of "You're unconscious now". And that makes it easier for the actors to accept and go along with it.

To make a long story short-- (Too late!)-- the game rules of D&D acts as our additional scene partner in our improvisations... making offers of how our scenes could go, usually in directions we may not have thought of ourselves. We don't NEED them to be our additional scene partner... but it can be awfully fun to have them.
That's awesome. Thank you for posting this.

I don't come from an improv background, but I've basically reached the same conclusion in regards to the rules. The mechanics can be as simple as a 3x5 card and you can play just about anything, any setting, any genre with no more than that. The rules exist only to cover those things that aren't obvious from the fiction, and whenever something's iffy, the group wants to be surprised, and to put in those, "sorry, but you lost this time" moments. In all those cases, it can be as simple as make a roll.

In my experience, it's only the hardcore roleplayers who will ever willingly lose at anything. This is also why I have a hard time reconciling people saying they want story in RPGs yet they play to win.
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I think the "informed decision making" argument is a bit of a smokescreen, honestly. A lot of the detail that players insist on having to make "informed decisions" is so far into the realm of pure game mechanics that their character couldn't possibly know that information. And much of that knowledge barely, if ever, corresponds to something in the fiction that the character could easily discern in the moment.

The obvious answer here is to present situations and settings where it makes sense for characters to know more or at least have the ability to readily find out. Sure the information environment should make sense so present situations where it makes sense the player characters would have the information they need to act confidently.

GMs prepare this stuff. We should all do a better job of presenting situations that have high information environments so players can spend more time acting on setting instead of desperately trying to find out what is going on. There is no need for us to be a victim of our own prep / world building. We can do a better job.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
In my experience, it's only the hardcore roleplayers who will ever willingly lose at anything. This is also why I have a hard time reconciling people saying they want story in RPGs yet they play to win.
I am personally a big fan of "Playing to lose". :) When I'm playing, I have no problems whatsoever making poor or deadly choices if I think they make sense for the scene... and that comes directly out of my improv background when I've had no choice but to "play to lose" in a scene just so it can end.

All you need is to be stuck onstage doing an improv scene that goes on and on and on because the booth operator won't kill the lights on it that the offer of "I'm going to just kill myself right now!" becomes a very attractive option. ;)
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
That's awesome. Thank you for posting this.

I don't come from an improv background, but I've basically reached the same conclusion in regards to the rules. The mechanics can be as simple as a 3x5 card and you can play just about anything, any setting, any genre with no more than that. The rules exist only to cover those things that aren't obvious from the fiction, and whenever something's iffy, the group wants to be surprised, and to put in those, "sorry, but you lost this time" moments. In all those cases, it can be as simple as make a roll.

In my experience, it's only the hardcore roleplayers who will ever willingly lose at anything. This is also why I have a hard time reconciling people saying they want story in RPGs yet they play to win.
Part of it is just how deep and tactical the combat part of the game is. It is not easy to engage it casually. The gravity of how expansive it is has crushing gravity on the gameplay. I dont blame folks that get into it, I enjoy it too, though I have my limits.

Lately, I have been enjoying other RPGs that have a simpler focus on combat. Traveller, for instance, has no detailed leveling system. It's got mechanical combat for both in person and starship, but it doesn't drastically change over time (level). Folks tend to focus more on character development, and more importantly, the campaign itself which is a nice change up from D&D from time to time.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I am personally a big fan of "Playing to lose". :) When I'm playing, I have no problems whatsoever making poor or deadly choices if I think they make sense for the scene... and that comes directly out of my improv background when I've had no choice but to "play to lose" in a scene just so it can end.

All you need is to be stuck onstage doing an improv scene that goes on and on and on because the booth operator won't kill the lights on it that the offer of "I'm going to just kill myself right now!" becomes a very attractive option. ;)
Playing Fiasco really opened up my players to the idea of acting out a loss. I think the inspiration on a natty 1 is a neat idea to open the door for D&D.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
I am personally a big fan of "Playing to lose". :) When I'm playing, I have no problems whatsoever making poor or deadly choices if I think they make sense for the scene... and that comes directly out of my improv background when I've had no choice but to "play to lose" in a scene just so it can end.

All you need is to be stuck onstage doing an improv scene that goes on and on and on because the booth operator won't kill the lights on it that the offer of "I'm going to just kill myself right now!" becomes a very attractive option. ;)
For me it was growing up playing B/X and AD&D and having played RPGs, board games, and wargames for 40-odd years. You win some, you lose some. A new character is a few quick seconds away. There's no need to fret and worry about losing, character death, etc. It will happen eventually, your only choices in the matter is how well prepared you are for it and how well you handle the loss. To me, putting all your effort into preventing loss (min-maxing, power gaming, playing to win, invulnerable characters, etc) is utterly missing the point. Loss is inevitable you're just wasting your time trying to prevent it. In the time the power gamer takes to make one "perfect" build, I've made a dozen characters. The perfect build player will hem and haw and lament the loss of their character while I'm glad to try this new character.
 

...
Would you rule favorably toward this?

The powergaming idiom of the second example is off putting to me and would be out of place in our group, but I think I prefer it to the more narrative account. It's a blank slate, which means I can have a conversation with the player and figure out what they want from the character and how to situate the character in the world where we are playing. A similar process can happen in a session 0 collaboratively between the group. That is, synergy between the fiction and the mechanics is good, but the fiction part doesn't come from a rulebook per se. That's the thing that's shared and built collaboratively, and that's where the dynamics of the particular group and their shared "invisible" references will come into play.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
The obvious answer here is to present situations and settings where it makes sense for characters to know more or at least have the ability to readily find out. Sure the information environment should make sense so present situations where it makes sense the player characters would have the information they need to act confidently.
And the obvious answer to that is the characters do not and basically cannot exist in such an information-rich environment. The player's desire for precise metagame information is at odds with the amount and quality of information reasonably available to the character in the fiction. No monster living in a dungeon is going to paint 5ft markings across the floor, for example.

The only time a character would know precisely how far away something is is if they happen to be in their home and happened to have measured the distances precisely before combat for some reason. And then, it's not going to be precise. You might know the couch is 40-some inches and the door's a little smaller than that. But unless you've taken a tape measure to your living room, and memorized those numbers, and can recall those numbers perfectly in a life-and-death situation, you're not going to know exactly how far something is from you. The further from those ideal conditions you are, the less precise your information will be.

You're in a dimly-lit dungeon 100ft underground some 200 miles from your home. There's about a 0% chance of you knowing exactly how far away is that drooling monster who wants to eat your face.
GMs prepare this stuff. We should all do a better job of presenting situations that have high information environments so players can spend more time acting on setting instead of desperately trying to find out what is going on. There is no need for us to be a victim of our own prep / world building. We can do a better job.
No, we referees should be more honest and prepare the setting in an honest way. As above, unless the conditions are literally perfect, the characters will not have precise information. That the players decide that's not enough, that's cheating, that's not fair, etc is 100% on them. That the players want more information to make a split-second decision than hours worth of scans and measurements could possibly provide is not reasonable and referees should not cater to that.
so players can spend more time acting on setting instead of desperately trying to find out what is going on...
What a self-contradictory statement. Trying to find out what's going on is acting on the setting. Do you want to know what's behind that door? Guess what, you have to go over there and open it. To gain information you have to act on the environment.

ETA: Try this experiment. No need to report the results. Grab a small cup or bowl and a tape measure or ruler. Go into the biggest room of your home, keeping your eyes on the floor. Don't bump into anything, but don't scan the room. Pick a relatively centered spot and put down the cup/bowl and tape measure between your feet. Close your eyes and stand up straight. Angle your self about 5-10 degrees off-center from the walls. Now...point out your arm at some small object in the room, against the walls, or on the walls, like a TV or picture. Say out loud the number of feet you are away from that object. Open your eyes and look. Now, be honest. I bet you were close, but not spot on with your directions. Now measure the distance from the cup/bowl to the object you picked. Again, be honest. I bet you were off by more than a little bit. And that's the objects in a room you regularly interact with. Now extrapolate that out to a place you've never been before, in less than ideal conditions, in dim light, and knowing your life is in jeopardy. There's no chance you're going to have perfect knowledge of relative distances.
 
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I think diegetic consistency can be maintained while providing clear, interesting challenges to the players. For example, Chris McDowall writes about treating traps as visible puzzles:


In some cases it's ok to give more information that you might think you need to the players to facilitate choice. For example, in my OSR game I've been playing around with being very explicit about what rumors the PCs find, to the point that I give them a sheet telling them what rumors they've heard in the last session (we manage to play in this game once a month at most, so they've probably forgotten what happened previously even though it might have only been a few hours of in-game time). This goes against the more modern tendency to slowly build up information for a big "reveal," but for me the pay off has never been worth it (the players don't care as much about your world as you do).

Tangent, in terms of navigating a dungeon: remember those "eye of the beholder" video games? I used to get so confused where I was in those dungeons. I remember making an actual map on graph paper as I was playing the game.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Tangent, in terms of navigating a dungeon: remember those "eye of the beholder" video games? I used to get so confused where I was in those dungeons. I remember making an actual map on graph paper as I was playing the game.

Those were some fancy graphics! I was more ... this speed.

wiz17.png


Mad Overlord, May I?
 

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