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D&D 5E How do you feel about PC abilities being nerfed by the DM?

Stormonu

Legend
I both buff and nerf as necessary. I prefer to run things as written first, so I can see how things work normally, and will then adjust as needed from there. This often means a mid-game change with discussion with the player(s) to get their input, and I allow the player to re-spec their character if it has a big enough effect to change how they play the character.

Sometimes I change things to fit a campaign theme (like no Dragonborn in Dragonlance), but those changes will be presented up front as a part of session 0.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
I will use an example of a nerf I did "midcampaign".

As a DM, I had hated counterspell for quite some time, and I had tried a few houserules in my two previous campaigns to try and address it to my satisfaction, but I still felt like I was designing entire encounters because of the one spell, over and over again.

In the current game, one of the players was a wizard. We had a fight where both the wizard and monster had counterspell, and the classic "I counter your counter" ensued. It was tedious, boring, and was my final straw, I found the spell thoroughly unfun, I hated when my players lost a spell and were disappointed, I hated when my big monster lost their spell and did nothing, I was simple tired of it.

I pulled the player aside and let them know I was planning to ban the spell, and allowed them to instantly swap the spell for any other 3rd level spell. The player did so, kept on trucking, and I banned the spell. Never looked back once, and as a DM It was like putting fresh air in my lungs again, the freedom not having that spell to worry about allowed me to create a whole new set of encounters.

Sometimes bans are good for your game and your players. Even Treantmonk thinks that banning certain spells makes the game as a whole better ()
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
My view is that as a player if the DM wants to nerf a build I would be prefer to play something else that the DM does not feel the need to nerf.

As a DM, in general I do not ban anything. My position, is we can try anything but I do point out that if there are issues we will discuss it. So far I have not banned anything.
 

The thing is here that the balance that is important is not between your pc and the monsters - like you said, a DM could easily make make the monsters tougher- but rather between your PC and the other PCs

I personally think the moon druid is ok, but I haven't had much experience with them at my table. I have banned other subclasses following a short campaign, so while I might not agree with your GM re the moon druid in particular, in general I do agree that they have the right to ban certain subclasses.
This is absolutely where I stand. In 5e, some options are just better than others, sometimes by a large margin. I absolutely buff dome of the weaker character options, and give them specific opportunities to shine, but as DM, I absolutely reserve the right to nerf pre-game, or on occasion, during the game. Generally, this involves a respectful discussion between the DM and the player.

Overall, I feel that player agency is best preserved by all players feeling free to choose any class-subclass combination, rather than feeling overshadowed by characters that are stronger because they choose an overpowered subclass.
 

Hussar

Legend
I suppose what I'm saying is that there is a strong current of, "most of my gaming history is full of jerk GMs, so I trust no one.

I agree with you about mid-sessions nerfs though.

If most of my gaming history IS full of jerk DMs though, isn’t that a reasonable response?

There’s a tendency to pretend that there isn’t a bell curve of dm quality. That as soon as someone decides to run a game, the DM Fairy comes and sprinkles you with magic DM dust and a great time is had by all.

That just can’t be true. The truth is most dms are okay - just like anything else - but at either end of the curve, you have at least just as many bad dms as good ones.

And that’s not accounting for simple mismatched in play styles where the dm and player are both great (or both bad) but playing fundamentally different games.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
As a DM who has had to do this (only once, albeit with a mechanic I wrote myself), my feelings are very mixed.

On the one hand, I very much prefer to never, ever "nerf" player character abilities if possible. I very much believe in under-promising and over-delivering, as it were. Let the player choose something because they see something cool in it, and then give them something awesome they never expected on top of that. It fosters excitement and creativity--because they know that there may be more to what they can do than just the words on the page. Particularly if these are abilities already written into the game, rather than ones I have written myself, since pre-existing mechanics are implicitly "what I am offering to let you play" rather than "this is my best-guess effort at something functional."

On the other, sometimes certain things really do just end up being WAY too strong. In the aforementioned case, I had given the player a cool new stance that allowed him to do more damage. I thought, from the initial stuff, that it would be relatively balanced. It was not. In both battles with the unmodified original mechanic, by the end he was doing like 6x the amount of damage he could normally do, vastly outstripping anything anyone else could contribute. I had intended this effect to be cool, but not "realign all priorities to make our living blender even better" cool, and another player spoke with me privately about feeling overshadowed and unimportant as a result of it. So, although my extremely strong preference is to never nerf things, I had to admit that I had flubbed up here, so I spoke with the player and asked him how he felt about it. We talked for an hour or two, discussing what he liked about the current status of it, and I presented possible directions we could go to fix it. He picked one, and together we worked out a slightly toned-down version. In brief, sans detail, it would be more costly to trigger (meaning he would have to think very carefully about using up that resource for other purposes) and would ramp up more slowly. He felt that was appropriate, and has continued to enjoy it going forward.

TL;DR: I had to do this once in an extreme case, and having to do it at all bothered me. I did as much as I could to work with the player so they were included in the re-design process. In any less extreme case, I instead prefer to build up other PCs and their opposition, rather than pull down someone who has risen too high. I would pretty much never nerf an existing ability, unless it was so ludicrously extreme that everyone could see it was issue but had (somehow) failed to reach my notice at the pre-play stage.
 

while this is ideal, in practice DMs are human beings that don't necessary always have a master record of everything they have an issue with. We also have to respect that the context of the DM's campaign HEAVILY impacts balance.

If your playing a notable low level game, where the players will be 1-3 level for a long time.... moon druids are OP. Playing a game where wilderness survival is the literal name of the game, suddenly rangers and druids are a whole lot stronger than normal. Playing a campaign where arcane magic is dying....a wizard might be underpowered, etc.
I was going to say this exact same thing. What is overpowered or underpowered is very context- and campaign- specific. We should be very careful about, for instance, saying moon druids are not OP unless we know that context.

For example, another poster gave the example of a forge cleric. My first thought was that if the first arc of the campaign is going after a band of wererats and trying to find silver to defeat their immunity is going to be a challenge, I can see why the DM wouldn’t want a player to play a forge cleric.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
If most of my gaming history IS full of jerk DMs though, isn’t that a reasonable response?

There’s a tendency to pretend that there isn’t a bell curve of dm quality. That as soon as someone decides to run a game, the DM Fairy comes and sprinkles you with magic DM dust and a great time is had by all.

That just can’t be true. The truth is most dms are okay - just like anything else - but at either end of the curve, you have at least just as many bad dms as good ones.

And that’s not accounting for simple mismatched in play styles where the dm and player are both great (or both bad) but playing fundamentally different games.

It feels odd that DM ability is a bell curve centered on ok, but you keep getting jerky ones...
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Although having 1 guy who can only make 1 attack per turn be able to deal full damage to a wererat wouldn't really be a problem, I can see the point that if you make the adventure first, before seeing characters, you can run into problems.

On the other hand, that's like saying firebolt is too strong if you're planning on the first major enemy to be a wyrmling white dragon...
 

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