How do you feel about raising longbow damage?

[Thia Halmades]

Using Iaujitsu as a Sniping ability: that's sick. Like, crazy clever, but ... eep. Supah Snipahs, unite! Little too scary for me, but admittedly cool. Well played, Storyteller01. That's not the topic of the thread though.

Longbow damage uppage: I say no, flat out. d8 is the gold standard damage die, just as the longsword is the standard weapon. Too many feats and PrCs make the longbow deadly, and a little extra cash buys you a Mighty Longbow that uses your STR bonus. I have a Divine Archer (homebrewed PrC) who gets SA damage and he's plenty nasty without me giving him d10 dice.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Nim]

I'm actually tinkering with rules where bows cannot be fired nearly as fast but damage scales up with BAB somehow. Still in the ROUGH development stages.

I just really hate machinegun archers; I've fired a bow many times (I was in an archery league) and there is just no way to shoot an arrow that fast. Bows do not lend themselves to combinations like melee weapons do.

Right. If you want realistic archery, you need to substantially change the way it's handled in D&D...and you'll end up with something weaker than what currently exists.

Now, of course we can have the debate about whether 'realism' is a worthwhile or desirable goal in a fantasy game

The historical rate of fire for a longbowman appears to have been between 12 and 20 shots per minute, depending on which sources you believe and how well-trained the archer was.

HR suggestion: Disallow iterative attacks with bows, but allow Rapid Shot. That hits the 'realistic' RoF quite nicely.

The pull of a bow significantly affects its range. However, the bow ranges in the book are also a bit too generous, when we remember that the maximum range for a projectile weapon is 10 range increments. The US Nat'l Archery Association lists the following national distance records for longbow:

Unlimited draw.....1225' 4" 125
70 lb draw.....1107' 5" 110
50 lb draw.....975' 10" 95
35 lb draw.....867' 2" 85

Source for those numbers is http://www.usarchery.org/files/04_nat_regular_flight.pdf . Note that the ranges for modern compound recurves are MUCH higher, but those records were set with bows specifically modified for increased range (rather than power, accuracy, etc) and aren't good benchmarks for combat weapons.

HR suggestion: If the 35-lb draw is a standard Strength 10 longbow, and the unlimited-draw is a Mighty +4 longbow, then it looks like the composite longbow should have a base range increment of 85, plus 10 per point of Strength bonus it allows if Mighty.

Now, here's the real problem...in a hitpoint based combat system. a single arrow isn't very intimidating. So, when you take away the rapid rate of fire, you're left with bows that have no stopping power and aren't an effective primary weapon choice for adventuring combat. I'm not entirely against that, depending on the style of game you're running...bows should either weapons of ambush, or weapons of massed battlefield combat. But it's not very exciting. And even from ambush, PCs (or their foes) will shrug off the effect of a couple of arrows using the base damage.

Rather than scaling up the damage of the weapon, however (because really...should a hurried shot with a bow really be more dangerous than a swordblow?), I'd suggest allowing a Take Aim action. Off the top of my head and without really running the numbers to see if it's balanced, something like:

HR suggestion: Take Aim (move-equiv): While armed with a projectile weapon, you aim at a target. If you shoot that target without first breaking your aim, your critical threat range is increased by 1 for that attack only. Your aim is broken if you take any action other than shooting the target, or if the target moves out of your line of sight. You may spend 1 action aiming for each 5 points of BAB (or fraction thereof); the effects are cummulative. Special: Characters with the Feat: Improved Critical for the projectile weapon they are using apply the effect of the feat AFTER all modifiers for aiming are added.

With enough BAB, taking the time to aim, and spending a feat on ImpCrit, an expert archer would crit on almost every hit. But because they'd only be attacking 1 every round or two (depending on how long they aimed), their overall damage output would still be modest compared to current levels. It would, however, greatly reward archers who went to the effort to get the benefit of surprise, so they could aim before the fight started. And really, that's fairly appropriate.

 

[Nebulous]

Rather than scaling up the damage of the weapon, however (because really...should a hurried shot with a bow really be more dangerous than a swordblow?), I'd suggest allowing a Take Aim action. Off the top of my head and without really running the numbers to see if it's balanced, something like:

I think Grim Tales had a feat for that. Or some similar mechanic. The above sounds reasonable though. It would be great if aiming were in the core rules. Seems like a logical option.

 

[Thia Halmades]

I like Nim's ruling, if you're going for an accuracy over output flavor, that's an excellent change. Further, with Imp. Init and Imp. Crit, your Archer would dead lethal. Here's my question.

- How does this work with a full attack? Does an archer with a 15/10/5 get +3, +2 and +1? Or does aiming only apply to the first attack? Can you execute a Full Attack while Aiming?

- You may spend one action for each 5 pts. BAB, rounded down. Are you referring to the Full Attack option, or aiming over time (Round 1, 2, etc.)?

I accept that archery is never going to be realistic. But if we're going for realism, then we need to dump the entire system, because I don't have enough hit points to survive a hammer to the head without it cracking open like a melon. I'm all about plausibility, all day, every day, but there are elements of realism that need to get shelved to make room for playability.

Archery is one of those casualties of mechanics; it will never (and isn't meant to) accurately reproduce the effects of an arrow through the chest, anymore than the d8 on a long sword is going to kill a 2nd level Fighter outside of a lucky shot or a hefty strength bonus. Any other argument is academic, really.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[Nim]

I like Nim's ruling, if you're going for an accuracy over output flavor, that's an excellent change. Further, with Imp. Init and Imp. Crit, your Archer would dead lethal. Here's my question.

- How does this work with a full attack? Does an archer with a 15/10/5 get +3, +2 and +1? Or does aiming only apply to the first attack? Can you execute a Full Attack while Aiming?

- You may spend one action for each 5 pts. BAB, rounded down. Are you referring to the Full Attack option, or aiming over time (Round 1, 2, etc.)?

Well, I was thinking of all of those suggestions as a set, and the first one was 'don't allow iterative attacks with a bow', so I didn't really give it any thought But, as a standalone change...I'd suggest not allowing aiming with a full attack. The higher rate of critical hits is really only balanced by a lower rate of fire.

On the second question, what I had in mind was aiming over time, but with the maximum benefit set by BAB. So, any archer could, every round, Aim (as a move action) and shoot once (as an Attack action). An archer with a high BAB could aim for consecutive rounds. To be thorough, I'd probably say that aiming as a Move action gives +1, and aiming as a Full Round action gives +2...so an 11th level fighter could aim (full round), aim (move action), shoot (attack action). That'd be 1 shot per 2 rounds, but that shot would threaten on a 17 or better...13 or better with Improved Crit.

And of course, the time it would really come into its own would be when you weren't aiming DURING combat, but BEFORE combat.

... but again, the maximum bonus is set by your BAB. A 1st level fighter can aim for as long as he wants, but he's only going to get so much benefit out of it

I accept that archery is never going to be realistic. But if we're going for realism, then we need to dump the entire system, because I don't have enough hit points to survive a hammer to the head without it cracking open like a melon. I'm all about plausibility, all day, every day, but there are elements of realism that need to get shelved to make room for playability.

Archery is one of those casualties of mechanics; it will never (and isn't meant to) accurately reproduce the effects of an arrow through the chest, anymore than the d8 on a long sword is going to kill a 2nd level Fighter outside of a lucky shot or a hefty strength bonus. Any other argument is academic, really.

Agreed; the hit point system is enough of an abstraction that in the end, it's foolish to try to model things too precisely within that framework. The best you can aim for (no pun intended) is to get similar end results.

 

[genshou]

HR suggestion: Take Aim (move-equiv): While armed with a projectile weapon, you aim at a target. If you shoot that target without first breaking your aim, your critical threat range is increased by 1 for that attack only. Your aim is broken if you take any action other than shooting the target, or if the target moves out of your line of sight. You may spend 1 action aiming for each 5 points of BAB (or fraction thereof); the effects are cummulative. Special: Characters with the Feat: Improved Critical for the projectile weapon they are using apply the effect of the feat AFTER all modifiers for aiming are added.

With enough BAB, taking the time to aim, and spending a feat on ImpCrit, an expert archer would crit on almost every hit. But because they'd only be attacking 1 every round or two (depending on how long they aimed), their overall damage output would still be modest compared to current levels. It would, however, greatly reward archers who went to the effort to get the benefit of surprise, so they could aim before the fight started. And really, that's fairly appropriate.

This is a good idea, especially for vitality/wounds games if you don't mind making snipers deadlier against high-level heroes (I don't ). However, you shouldn't logistically allow the modification to threat range to factor into the benfits of Improved Critical. A weapon's base threat range represents a quality of the weapon itself, and all skill or circumstance which affects one's ability to score a threat either decreases the character's threat range with the weapon by a fixed amount, or decreases the character's threat range by a multiplier of the weapon's base threat range. Not that unprecented is necessarily wrong of course, but this is like allowing the Weapon Specialization damage to be multiplied by 1.5 when wielding a two-handed weapon–they're separate modifiers to the base number whic is damage, and the multiplication and alteration of one doesn't affect the other.

 

[Baragos]

However, you shouldn't logistically allow the modification to threat range to factor into the benfits of Improved Critical. A weapon's base threat range represents a quality of the weapon itself, and all skill or circumstance which affects one's ability to score a threat either decreases the character's threat range with the weapon by a fixed amount, or decreases the character's threat range by a multiplier of the weapon's base threat range

I can't speak for Nim, but I think this was included to make "true" archers that much more dangerous than mere fighters who were to pick up a bow occasionally. Of course, even 16-20 is good for an x3 ranged weapon...

 

[Thia Halmades]

You know, it would also make sense as such:

Feat: Take Aim (BAB 4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weap. Focus: any bow (not including crossbows). This feat allows the archer to maximize their striking ability, finding the chink in the enemy's armor and delivering a lethal shot. Take Aim is a move action equivalency. Every move-action (or its equivalent) a character uses Take Aim, their Critical Threat ratio goes up by 1 (i.e., from 20 to 19-20, two move-actions, 18-20, and so on) to a maximum of their BAB.

Anytime a character uses Take Aim, it is considered a full-round action. A character cannot move more than a 5' step while using Take Aim, although they may release their shot during their standard attack. A character using Take Aim does not get or count their iterative attacks that round, even after letting loose their arrow, if they used Take Aim that round.

The archer must have an unimpeded line of sight to the target in order to Take Aim. They may not Take Aim on a target with concealment or cover, including effects such as Blur, or a displacer beast's natural miss chance.

An archer may opt to Take Aim before combat; they gain one Critical Threat improvement per round, as determined by the DM (for measuring time outside of combat, refer to the DMG).

Take Aim is a critical effect ability, and does not apply to creatures with no discernable anatomy, or who are immune to critical attacks. Take Aim stacks with the Improved Critical feat, but only by extending the critical threat range AFTER the feat is applied. If your Critical Threat range is 19-20 with Improved Critical, Take Aim extends that to 18-20 on the first move-equivalent, 17-20 on the 2nd, and so on.

Thoughts?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[genshou]

You know, it would also make sense as such:

Feat: Take Aim (BAB 4, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weap. Focus: any bow (not including crossbows). This feat allows the archer to maximize their striking ability, finding the chink in the enemy's armor and delivering a lethal shot. Take Aim is a move action equivalency. Every move-action (or its equivalent) a character uses Take Aim, their Critical Threat ratio goes up by 1 (i.e., from 20 to 19-20, two move-actions, 18-20, and so on) to a maximum of their BAB.

Anytime a character uses Take Aim, it is considered a full-round action. A character cannot move more than a 5' step while using Take Aim, although they may release their shot during their standard attack. A character using Take Aim does not get or count their iterative attacks that round, even after letting loose their arrow, if they used Take Aim that round.

The archer must have an unimpeded line of sight to the target in order to Take Aim. They may not Take Aim on a target with concealment or cover, including effects such as Blur, or a displacer beast's natural miss chance.

An archer may opt to Take Aim before combat; they gain one Critical Threat improvement per round, as determined by the DM (for measuring time outside of combat, refer to the DMG).

Take Aim is a critical effect ability, and does not apply to creatures with no discernable anatomy, or who are immune to critical attacks. Take Aim stacks with the Improved Critical feat, but only by extending the critical threat range AFTER the feat is applied. If your Critical Threat range is 19-20 with Improved Critical, Take Aim extends that to 18-20 on the first move-equivalent, 17-20 on the 2nd, and so on.

Thoughts?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

Sounds good to me.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

If you are not removing iterative attacks, I think a Take AIM feat would be better as:

Using Take Aim, you may make a single attack as a full round action. You gain an improvement of +1 to the ranged weapons critical threat range for each additional or iterative attack you would have gotten as part of a full attack with that weapon.

This variant stacks neatly with other feats and abilities. A 20th level fighter could gain an expanded threat range of +5, {4 from BAB, 1 from Rapid Shot} making a Bow go from 20/x3 to 15-20/x3


If you are removing iterative attacks from bows, another factor needs to apply to keep them from being nerfed.

{edit}.. instead of limiting to just Bows, this mechanic can be used with other ranged weaponry..X-Bows dont gain as much advantage as they are limited by reload time and dont have the max number of additional attacks...

JMHO