How do you feel about raising longbow damage?

[genshou]

If you are not removing iterative attacks, I think a Take AIM feat would be better as:

Using Take Aim, you may make a single attack as a full round action. You gain an improvement of +1 to the ranged weapons critical threat range for each additional or iterative attack you would have gotten as part of a full attack with that weapon.

This variant stacks neatly with other feats and abilities. A 20th level fighter could gain an expanded threat range of +5, {4 from BAB, 1 from Rapid Shot} making a Bow go from 20/x3 to 15-20/x3


If you are removing iterative attacks from bows, another factor needs to apply to keep them from being nerfed.

{edit}.. instead of limiting to just Bows, this mechanic can be used with other ranged weaponry..X-Bows dont gain as much advantage as they are limited by reload time and dont have the max number of additional attacks...

JMHO

You know, Primitive Screwhead, the very idea you have just suggested is one way in which a person could make bows still have some power with a smaller number of attacks. I'm going to use the rules below along with that PDF about bows with Effective Strength in my next campaign. Critique the following:

Attacking with a Bow
You cannot make iterative attacks with bows. In other words, you only get a single attack per round with a bow, regardless of your Base Attack Bonus, unless a feat or ability grants additional attacks, such as the Rapid Shot feat or the speed weapon enhancement. Drawing an arrow, nocking it, and firing the bow are all accomplished in a single attack action.
Take Aim: If you take a full-round action to carefully aim and fire your bow, you gain a cumulative +1 to your threat range per attack normally granted to you each round by your base attack bonus. This increase to threat range stacks with Improved Critical and similar abilities. For example, an 11th-level fighter gets three attacks (at +11/+6/+1), so his bow would have a threat range 3 greater than normal when using a full-round action to fire his bow. This requires steady aim, so if you have an ability which grants additional attacks with your bow, this benefit applies only to the first attack you make in your full-round action.

Rapid Shot [General, Fighter*]
You can use a bow or sling faster than normal.
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot; proficient with shortbow, composite shortbow, longbow, composite longbow, or sling.
Benefit: When you take a full-round action to fire a bow or sling with which you are proficient, you may opt to take an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. All attacks made with the weapon that round take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Normal: You can only make a single attack each round with a bow, even if you take a full-round action. You can make a number of attacks with a sling as per your base attack bonus.
Special: Because steady aim is required to increase threat range via the "take aim" full-round action, you only apply the increased threat range to the first arrow shot in a round. Any subsequent attacks cannot be made with such accuracy.
* A fighter may select this feat as one of their fighter bonus feats.

Speed
As the normal weapon ability excepting as with respect to bows:
When you take a full-round action to fire your bow, you gain an additional free attack with the bow at your highest attack bonus. Because the increase to threat range requires steady aim, this free attack does not gain the benefit of threat range increase for taking aim.

 

[Nim]

I like it. It's basically along the lines I was thinking, but it drops the whole idea of having to aim for multiple rounds to get the full bonus. Doing it this way may actually be more realistic; I'm not sure that aiming for more than 3 seconds or so really provides that much in terms of additional benefit.

Which actually brings us to non-bow missile weapons. Since people liked the bow stuff, I'll throw this out there as well and see if anyone wants to do anything with it.

Taking aim should be possible with a bow or crossbow, but not a sling or thrown weapon.

Iterative attacks SHOULD be possible with thrown weapons, so long as the attacker has easy access to projectiles - for instance, holding them in the off hand or storing them in a bandolier. Some DMs require Quickdraw for this, but I think that transfering a weapon from the left hand to the right should be a free action. You'd need to put reasonable limits on what could be held in the off hand, of course. Four or five throwing knives seems perfectly plausible.

What few references I've managed to find suggest that ancient slingers actually had a higher rate of fire than archers. Apparently, there's a technique in which the ammunition is held in the left hand while the sling is in the right. The cast is made overhand, perhaps angled to the side a bit (not swung around in a circle parallel to the ground), and as the now-empty sling comes down after the throw, the slinger holds up a bullet with the left hand. The sling wraps itself around the bullet; the free end of the sling swings back up to the right hand, and the throwing motion continues uninterupted. Apparently, a trained slinger could pretty much cast non-stop until he ran out of bullets in his off hand.

To me, that argues for letting slings make full iterative attacks, but perhaps first requiring a feat, like Rapid Reload. That's a pretty specific and un-obvious technique, after all.

For crossbows...if you wanted to be really thorough, you'd give each crossbow a strength rating, and then base the reload speed on the relative strengths of the bow and the person loading it. Just as a simple set, you could have a few possibilities:

Hand-spanning: Cocking the crossbow by simply pulling the string back with your hand and then loading it requires a move action (10 shots per minute), and strength equal to the strength of the bow.

Belt-hook or lever: With a belt-hook, the bow is braced point-down against the ground (usually via a foot-loop on the front of the bow), and a hook hanging from the character's belt is hooked around the string. This lets the character use their leg muscles (instead of their arms) to bend the bow. This requires a full-round action (5 shots per minute), and a strength within 5 points of that of the bow. A lever is different cocking aid (and usually requires the bow to have been designed to use one) that works at a similar speed.

Ratchet: Using a hand-ratchet (a geared crank) to arm a crossbow takes two full-round actions (3 shots per minute), and a strength within 10 points of that of the bow. A ratchet must be built into the bow.

Windlass: A heavy, two-handed crank system. It requires 4 full-round actions (2 shots per minute), and can be used by any creature of appropriate size, regardless of strength. A windlass must be built into the bow.

Then, set a maximum strength for crossbows of a certain size, to avoid any really blatant abuse. The strength limits above (0,-5,-10,unlimited) might need to be changed; I pulled them out of the air.

Rapid Reload could be left as-is, or it could give a flat bonus to Strength for the purpose of loading a crossbow.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Looks good! You could specify that it applies only to Bows, altho I could see light weapons in use with this feat as well {sling, dagger}. Not Javelins or rocks {unless you are really big }

To clarify on the 'precision damage'.. generally when the rules speak of precision damage, it is limited to within 30 feat... do you want to spell that out as true or as an exception?

 

[genshou]

I like it. It's basically along the lines I was thinking, but it drops the whole idea of having to aim for multiple rounds to get the full bonus. Doing it this way may actually be more realistic; I'm not sure that aiming for more than 3 seconds or so really provides that much in terms of additional benefit.

I can't see how aiming for more than three seconds gives any benefit, which is why I went with this variant. It was also the best suggestion I could toss out for balancing bow combatants who don't get iterative attacks.

Which actually brings us to non-bow missile weapons. Since people liked the bow stuff, I'll throw this out there as well and see if anyone wants to do anything with it.

Taking aim should be possible with a bow or crossbow, but not a sling or thrown weapon.

Iterative attacks SHOULD be possible with thrown weapons, so long as the attacker has easy access to projectiles - for instance, holding them in the off hand or storing them in a bandolier. Some DMs require Quickdraw for this, but I think that transfering a weapon from the left hand to the right should be a free action. You'd need to put reasonable limits on what could be held in the off hand, of course. Four or five throwing knives seems perfectly plausible.

What few references I've managed to find suggest that ancient slingers actually had a higher rate of fire than archers. Apparently, there's a technique in which the ammunition is held in the left hand while the sling is in the right. The cast is made overhand, perhaps angled to the side a bit (not swung around in a circle parallel to the ground), and as the now-empty sling comes down after the throw, the slinger holds up a bullet with the left hand. The sling wraps itself around the bullet; the free end of the sling swings back up to the right hand, and the throwing motion continues uninterupted. Apparently, a trained slinger could pretty much cast non-stop until he ran out of bullets in his off hand.

To me, that argues for letting slings make full iterative attacks, but perhaps first requiring a feat, like Rapid Reload. That's a pretty specific and un-obvious technique, after all.

I think the level required to make iterative attacks reflects enough skill that the person should be able to make multiple attacks if the weapons are in hand or they have Quick Draw. I'd allow iterative attacks to be made with a sling without a feat, as per the normal rules.

For crossbows...if you wanted to be really thorough, you'd give each crossbow a strength rating, and then base the reload speed on the relative strengths of the bow and the person loading it. Just as a simple set, you could have a few possibilities:

Hand-spanning: Cocking the crossbow by simply pulling the string back with your hand and then loading it requires a move action (10 shots per minute), and strength equal to the strength of the bow.

Belt-hook or lever: With a belt-hook, the bow is braced point-down against the ground (usually via a foot-loop on the front of the bow), and a hook hanging from the character's belt is hooked around the string. This lets the character use their leg muscles (instead of their arms) to bend the bow. This requires a full-round action (5 shots per minute), and a strength within 5 points of that of the bow. A lever is different cocking aid (and usually requires the bow to have been designed to use one) that works at a similar speed.

Ratchet: Using a hand-ratchet (a geared crank) to arm a crossbow takes two full-round actions (3 shots per minute), and a strength within 10 points of that of the bow. A ratchet must be built into the bow.

Windlass: A heavy, two-handed crank system. It requires 4 full-round actions (2 shots per minute), and can be used by any creature of appropriate size, regardless of strength. A windlass must be built into the bow.

Then, set a maximum strength for crossbows of a certain size, to avoid any really blatant abuse. The strength limits above (0,-5,-10,unlimited) might need to be changed; I pulled them out of the air.

Rapid Reload could be left as-is, or it could give a flat bonus to Strength for the purpose of loading a crossbow.

I like the way loading works in the PDF previously listed which features bows and crossbows with an Effective Strength rating. Give me a bit to come up with the statistical value that should be applied by Rapid Reload and I'll tell you how that idea would work. If I don't post again here within 48 hours, I got distracted and need to be *reminded*. Forcefully.

 

[genshou]

Looks good! You could specify that it applies only to Bows, altho I could see light weapons in use with this feat as well {sling, dagger}. Not Javelins or rocks {unless you are really big }

To clarify on the 'precision damage'.. generally when the rules speak of precision damage, it is limited to within 30 feat... do you want to spell that out as true or as an exception?

Hi Primitive Screwhead!

Well, the benefit of the Improved Critical feat works at any range, and I'm taking vitality point/wound point systems into consideration as well regarding how critical hits work (seeing as half my fantasy games use them). For that reason, I will allow it to work at any range.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Thats what I figured.. just wanted to clear up the language a bit.

 

[Aus_Snow]

From Stone To Steel

Sounds intriguing.

you cant use these on a horse at all; they are simlpy WAY too big.

I was under the impression one can't really use any kind of longbow from horseback, and for the same reason, basically.

 

[Nyaricus]

Sounds intriguing.

and how!! This is an aweosme book > i saw the cover in a Dragon or Dungeon issue that my ex-DM had, and i immediately wanted it. It is a 3.0 book, but most of it is completely relevent (and there are a few REALLY nice weapons in there, like a Falcata > 2d3 small size sword my War-priest (cleric/fighter) from mulhorand used that in an old campaign )

but dont take my word for it! check it out > it has a phenominal array of weapons!

I was under the impression one can't really use any kind of longbow from horseback, and for the same reason, basically.

yeah, just over-clarifying. And yeah, same reason.

 

[genshou]

In Reference to Rapid Reload

The following feat variation is to take into account the rules for Effective Strength found in the PDF "A Discussion of Bows" referenced in post #12.

Rapid Reload [General, Fighter]
You can load a lever-drawn crossbow faster than normal.
Benefit: When reloading a lever-drawn crossbow, you can reload as a free action that provokes an attack of opportunity if the crossbow's Effective Strength is no greater than your own Strength +2, or as a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity if the crossbow's Effective Strength is no greater than your own Strength +4. You still cannot load a lever-drawn crossbow if its Effective Strength is greater than your own Strength +4.
Normal: Drawing back a lever-drawn crossbow is a move-equivalent action that provokes an opportunity if it's Effective Strength is no greater than your own Strength +2, or a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity if its Effective Strength is no greater than your own Strength +4. You cannot load a lever-drawn crossbow if its Effective Strength is greater than your own Strength +4.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feats. If using this feat with 3.0 rules (or if you simply want to avoid a light crossbow being fired as fast as a semiautomatic weapon), the benefits of the feat can only be used once per round.

 

[genshou]

Attacking with a Bow
You cannot make iterative attacks with bows. If you take a full-round action to take aim and fire your bow, you gain a cumulative +1 to your threat range per attack normally granted to you each round by your base attack bonus. This increase to threat range stacks with Improved Critical and similar abilities. For example, an 11th-level fighter gets three attacks (at +11/+6/+1), so his bow would have a threat range 3 greater than normal when using a full-round action to fire his bow. This ability requires precision, so if you have an ability which grants additional attacks with your bow, this benefit applies only to the first attack you make in a round.

Rapid Shot [General, Fighter]
You can use a bow or sling faster than normal.
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot; proficient with shortbow, composite shortbow, longbow, composite longbow, or sling.
Benefit: When you take a full-round action to fire a bow or sling with which you are proficient, you may opt to take an additional attack at your highest attack bonus. All attacks made with the weapon that round take a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Normal: You can only make a single attack each round with a bow, even if you take a full-round action. You can make a number of attacks with a sling as per your base attack bonus.
Special: Because taking aim with a bow requires precision, you only apply the increased threat range to the first arrow shot in a round.

Speed
As the normal weapon ability excepting as with respect to bows:
When you take a full-round action to fire your bow, you gain an additional free attack with the bow at your highest attack bonus. Because taking aim requires precision, this free attack does not gain the benefit of threat range increase for taking aim.

I want to test the above rules via my favorite number-crunching method. Does anyone here have sample characters they can post in NPC statistic format for me to use? Be sure to list whether the character is a 3.0 or 3.5 character, and if you wouldn't mind listing both the RAW bow stats and the size-appropriate statistics for a bow using the rules in A Discussion of Bows (see post #12), I'd appreciate that. If you can't list the alternate bow statistics, I will be able to do so myself. I'm just lazy

And to Primitive Screwhead:

I finally saw the word "precision" in my prior post that I'm quoting. I was referring to the rule that bonuses such as sneak attack, Weapon Specialization, and a ranger's favored enemy bonus only apply to one shuriken thrown (this following 3.0 rules in which three shuriken could be thrown as a single attack). This rule also applies to halfling skiprocks, as they can be made to bounce off of the first target and into the second, but the precision required to gain the aforemented bonuses don't apply to the second attack.

I've realized now the inconsistency in referencing that rule, as all of those effects do not apply beyond 30 ft., but the threat range increase does. I'll edit that in a moment to clarify the text.