How do you get +34 in diplomacy as a level 9 PC?

[Dross]

Did you watch Firefly? If you did, the example of Mal 'recruiting' Jayne might be a good example of diplomacy turning a hostile to friendly

Agreed, but the same reason that allowed Mal to recruite Jayne allowed Jayne to try and sell the doctor and his sister to the authorities. It was then fear that kept him in line (at least most of the time).

I see Diplomancy as having the subject behave towards the new friend as they would any other friend.
--Lord Draggal has commands your death my friend. My loyalty to him is greater than my loyalty to you. However if you submit I will give you a clean, quick and relatively painless death.
--I sold my mother for 30 gold, what makes you think that I will not sell you for 1000 gold?
And --My tribe is under attack from outsiders, come and help kill them all and we can feast apon their children. Then I will talk to the cheif about allowing you to take the right of manhood and join the tribe!

 

[Slobber Monster]

They work okay, for the diplomacy monkeys - but for anyone without max ranks in diplomacy, well, they break after a while:

A 20th level Wizard with a Charisma of 10 wants to get the time of day from his lover (also level 20, with Wisdom 10).

Base DC 35 (15+Level)
-10 (intimate relationship)
+0 (Even, neither reward nor risk)
Final DC: 25

If he offers a Favorable exchange, he can convince her to give him the time of day.... on a roll of 20. If he offers a Fantastic exchange, he needs a roll of 15. If he offers her nothing at all for the information, he simply flat out can't get it, even though it costs her nothing.

In fact, it's possible to really crash the system by asking for something you don't want, and getting it rejected..... followed strictly, of course.

I use Rich's diplomacy rules, but only for levels less than 10 so far so I've never had to deal with this edge case in game. To fix it I've been thinking of making a minor tweak and using the either the opponent's Will save bonus or 1/2 level + wisdom bonus instead of the straight level+wisdom bonus. Your example becomes:

15 +12 base will save +0 wisdom -10 intimate relationship = DC 17
or
15 +10 (1/2 level) + 0 wisdom -10 relationship = DC 15

In addition I would actually give a -5 or -10 risk/reward for something as trivial as asking your lover the time of day. After all, there is no risk and the reward is pleasing her lover - a fair trade in a good relationship. That plus one of the above tweaks brings the DC down into take 10 territory. Of course common sense should just handwave this away in the first place, but it's interesting as a bit of mechanics analysis.

I think I'm leaning towards the Will save method. It scales up a little quicker by level and it provides opportunities to make specific people more diplomacy proof via Feats and magic. It also makes low level NPC's with good Will save classes a little harder to sweet talk, which I like. On the other hand it makes dumb brutes like Hill Giants a little too easy, so I'll have to think on that some more.

 

[Piratecat]

Thats brilliant. Im curious, any DM out there would allow this?

Sure, I'd allow it. It actually sounds like great fun - because when the incredibly hated evil guy really likes a PC, the campaign gets more fun, not less fun.

"M'lord! The necromancer Drakumar has slain every single person in the town of Kelt and has animated their skeletons. The skeletons aren't attacking, though, and divination magic tells us that they've been created as a gift for [insert PC name here]. Apparently, Drakumar has great respect for this 'hero', enough to give him his own army of undead..."

 

[javcs]

Piratecat, that's genius - think of all of the possible plot hooks and twists that could come from that.
-evil laughter-
Where were we?
Heh, that makes getting players to have Bards or at least a Charismatic rogue-type more worthwhile, even in low-role-playing campaigns.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sure, I'd allow it. It actually sounds like great fun - because when the incredibly hated evil guy really likes a PC, the campaign gets more fun, not less fun.

"M'lord! The necromancer Drakumar has slain every single person in the town of Kelt and has animated their skeletons. The skeletons aren't attacking, though, and divination magic tells us that they've been created as a gift for [insert PC name here]. Apparently, Drakumar has great respect for this 'hero', enough to give him his own army of undead..."

I've actually done something similar with great success

There's nothing like using insane Diplomacy on evil people and creatures to bring a character along the path to the dark side--after all, the evil character bent on world domination always needs a consort to rule the world at her/his side