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D&D General How do you like your ASIs?

What do you like to see in your character creation rules?

  • Fixed ASI including possible negatives.

    Votes: 27 19.9%
  • Fixed ASI without negatives.

    Votes: 5 3.7%
  • Floating ASI with restrictions.

    Votes: 8 5.9%
  • Floating ASI without restrictions.

    Votes: 31 22.8%
  • Some fixed and some floating ASI.

    Votes: 19 14.0%
  • No ASI

    Votes: 35 25.7%
  • Other (feel free to describe)

    Votes: 11 8.1%

  • Total voters
    136

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 3

Bob decides to use the standard set of scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for Bruenor’s abilities. Since he’s a fighter, he puts his highest score, 15, in Strength. His next-highest, 14, goes in Constitution. Bruenor might be a brash fighter, but Bob decides he wants the dwarf to be older, wiser, and a good leader, so he puts decent scores in Wisdom and Charisma. After applying his racial benefits (increasing Bruenor’s Constitution by 2 and his Strength by 2), Bruenor’s ability scores and modifiers look like this: Strength 17 (+3), Dexterity 10 (+0), Constitution 16 (+3), Intelligence 8 (–1), Wisdom 13 (+1), Charisma 12 (+1).

Bob fills in Bruenor’s final hit points: 10 + his Constitution modifier of +3, for a total of 13 hit points."
A few examples does not design intent make. Hell, those aren't even Bruenor's stats. Anyone who has read the books knows that he isn't an idiot. His int would be in the teens, not 8.
 

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Scribe

Hero
"BUILDING BRUENOR, STEP 3

Bob decides to use the standard set of scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for Bruenor’s abilities. Since he’s a fighter, he puts his highest score, 15, in Strength. His next-highest, 14, goes in Constitution. Bruenor might be a brash fighter, but Bob decides he wants the dwarf to be older, wiser, and a good leader, so he puts decent scores in Wisdom and Charisma. After applying his racial benefits (increasing Bruenor’s Constitution by 2 and his Strength by 2), Bruenor’s ability scores and modifiers look like this: Strength 17 (+3), Dexterity 10 (+0), Constitution 16 (+3), Intelligence 8 (–1), Wisdom 13 (+1), Charisma 12 (+1).

Bob fills in Bruenor’s final hit points: 10 + his Constitution modifier of +3, for a total of 13 hit points."
Yes?

In a desire for players to succeed (forgiving mechanics, high success rate) and nostalgic appeal, they provide basic tropes, and examples that make things as easy on new players as possible.

Is a Tiefling Barbarian unsupported?
 

As interesting as this is, if we deviate from the expectations set by the encounter/CR design, then this quickly devolves into 'at my table' and no definition can be found.
Just to build on this a bit. I find that the expectations set out in the published adventures go a long way to defining expectations for the game in general.

First time players of a system will probably run a printed adventure to familiarize themselves with the system, and even for experienced players on forums, referring to existing adventures gives posters a common “language” to talk about difficulty.
 

Absolutely. In my current game I have 4 PCs. One has a main stat of 16, one 18, one 20 and one 22. They are all right around equally effective. Even the difference between the 16 and 22 isn't noticeable be me and I do all of the math regarding damage vs. monster hit points.
In my last campaign (4 people) the main melee characters were a Str 20 fighter and a Str 14 paladin. The paladin was not noticeably less effective than the fighter.
 


Haven't you ever felt proud of passing an exam with a top mark even when there was no consequence once the "passing grade" threshold was reached? I am not arguing it's a mechanical effect, it's how some people apparently feel with ability scores. Sure, you don't need anything, but on the spectrum of 3-18, one wants to be the closest as possible to 18, irrespective of whether it's actually needed for the game.
Interesting. I have definitely felt better when I worked my butt off and got a great grade rather than when the test was easier (or on a subject I knew backwards and forwards) and I got the same grade.
 


Or else the stat numbers just aren't as big of a deal as they were in prior editions.
…and the fighter probably would have been better off investing in the Inspiring Leader Feat rather than in yet another Str boost.

Here’s the thing: because of Bounded Accuracy, actually hitting a lot of the enemies wasn’t the problem. Even at level 8, they were frequently going up against AC 14 monsters. Yes, the fighter was hitting pretty much every round, but so was the paladin. And the difference in damage wasn’t sufficient to make an apparent difference.
 


Lyxen

Great Old One
Or else the stat numbers just aren't as big of a deal as they were in prior editions.

They are not, bounded accuracy is I think at the core of it. In previous editions, you needed to increase them because the world's DC and AC were going to increase with level in a linear fashion, so you needed to keep abreast. In 5e, you are still relevant - although possibly not the most efficient, but that is easily compensated by tactics, especially with the huge benefit of the Adv/Dis mechanic - at whatever level even if your stats do not follow. In previous editions, you needed to keep everything in order, level, stats, magic items, and if one was defaulting, you were underpowered. In 5e, the proficiency bonus will go up no matter what, the DC/AC don't increase linearly, and therefore Stats and Magic Items are much more optional, any combination will do and even none of them.
 




clearstream

(He, Him)
Yes?

In a desire for players to succeed (forgiving mechanics, high success rate) and nostalgic appeal, they provide basic tropes, and examples that make things as easy on new players as possible.

Is a Tiefling Barbarian unsupported?
I think if the contention is that the designers did not foresee that player characters would have 16 in their key abilities, that is very much not evidenced by their choice of example, which has 16+ in both its key abilities.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That is shifting to proficiency bonus instead of attribute. Hopefully the anniversary/5.5 edition will update the older classes/subclasses.
If that's true(not doubting you, I just haven't seen it myself), then that's just more proof that they didn't intent ability scores to have to be high(16+).
 

Scribe

Hero
I think if the contention is that the designers did not foresee that player characters would have 16 in their key abilities, that is very much not evidenced by their choice of example, which has 16+ in both its key abilities.
My proposal isn't that a 16 is unanticipated.

My question is, is the 14 or 15 insufficient for the challenges the player will face.

Because if so, and clearly designed by Wizards as such, many race/class combos would be invalidated.

It's like at my company. If a client finds a way to use the software, but it's unintended, is it supported, or will it cause problems?

Can I play a Tiefling Barbarian with Standard Array (unintended?) or will it cause problems?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Can I play a Tiefling Barbarian with Standard Array (unintended?) or will it cause problems?
That had to assume that all race/class combos would be played and set the game to that baseline. That means that with the standard array, 15(+2) is the highest stat they could assume. The few examples in the books of NPCs with 16+ as the main do not prove otherwise.
 

Scribe

Hero
That had to assume that all race/class combos would be played and set the game to that baseline. That means that with the standard array, 15(+2) is the highest stat they could assume. The few examples in the books of NPCs with 16+ as the main do not prove otherwise.
That's the assumption I'm at.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
That had to assume that all race/class combos would be played and set the game to that baseline. That means that with the standard array, 15(+2) is the highest stat they could assume. The few examples in the books of NPCs with 16+ as the main do not prove otherwise.

Another way to look at it is the fact that no-one ever complains about the Encounter calculator providing encounters that are way more deadly to a party than computed. It's always the other way around, encounters are actually considered easier than computed, and people are bragging about needing Deadly x3 to challenge their groups. Usually, the reason is that the characters are using options that make them extra powerful, but another conclusion is that, in general, the encounter calculator is based on standard array non-optimised characters of random class/race combo.
 

If that's true(not doubting you, I just haven't seen it myself), then that's just more proof that they didn't intent ability scores to have to be high(16+).
No, it is not “proof” of any such thing. It is evidence that they might (probably?) have recently been thinking that primary attributes have too much weight.

It could possibly also be the result of what you are suggesting. But if so one would wonder why it took them so long. So I don’t find that argument compelling.
 

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