how does evard's black tentacles work, and/or why is it good?

[chitzk0i]

I would find it easier to believe a simpler behavior for the tentacles. A very simple behavior could be that they just flail back and forth regardless of what's in the area, bludgeoning anything nearby at any time.

A step or two up from that would be tentacles that constrict anything in the area when they are created. These tentacles only know how to constrict: any creature initially in the spell's area is squeezed by tentacles, but if you escape, you just have to climb over the tentacles and get out.

Taking it a bit further would be tentacles that try to constrict anything that touches them. The tentacles would grab anything in the area regardless of whether it had previously escaped.

However, the text of the spell is more complex, probably for balance reasons.

 

[Will]

It makes more sense to you, Eamon, that the spell distinguishes people entering the spell area from 'grab anything in the area'?

Me, the latter makes much more sense; tentacles grasp for anything they can. If you enter the area, there you go. If you leave, no further worries.

The other interpretation, that I can wander around amidst the tentacles and they don't bother me because they've had their one chance, but if I step out and back in they make one swipe, seems a lot more convoluted.

 

[evilbob]

I think Will's response sums up the "spirit" of the spell quite well.

 

[FoxWander]

I'm of the opinion that the tentacles constantly try to grapple anyone within the area of the spell. The idea that if the first grapple fails they just leave you alone until you walk out and then re-enter the area just seems silly. The description of the spell clearly says "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check." So if you manage to avoid the initial grapple and don't leave immediately, you ARE going to get grappled again since you are still "within the area of the spell."

This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast and crushing them with great strength.

Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage.

Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes.

Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles. Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed.

I think the part in the last paragraph about entering the area is just to clarify that such a creature would be attacked immediately. Meaning it could not finish it's movement and would have to resolve the grapple as soon as it crossed into the spell's area.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Good Point #45
Saving Throw: None

Good Point #46
Spell Resistance: None

So, even if you have a low DC, poorly designed spellcaster, he can cast this spell with a good chance of suceess.

I pretty much used it to accomplish three things.

1. Eliminate an enemy spellcaster from the battle.
2. Try to keep flying things on the ground.
3. Spread out the stream of enemies attacking you over a couple rounds.

D "We pretty much always replaced the N with an S when referring to this spell" S

 

[eamon]

It makes more sense to you, Eamon, that the spell distinguishes people entering the spell area from 'grab anything in the area'?

I think of them as a kind of almost-living tentacles. They obviously are sufficiently aware to be able to grapple - kind of like a zombie, say. They grab at anything they can, and if they can't grab it, they grab the next best thing. On the other hand, they're not intelligent, and can't distinguish a target they've already grappled from one they've not yet encountered - so if you leave the area and reenter, you are grappled again.

In any case, the rules text seems crystal clear to me on rules crunch - they attempt to grapple creatures in the area, and once they've grappled them, they attempt to do damage each round. They explicitly stop that when the creature escapes (from the grapple). They explicitly try grappling all those which enter the area at a later time.

The rules crunch isn't overcomplicated - as a matter of fact, it's simpler than rerolling every turn and involves fewer rolls. You only roll for those still grappled, and only for damage - and when a creature enters the area, there is one attempt to grapple it.

I can imagine the existance of some alternate spell which regrapples every turn, but that would be more powerful, and slower in gameplay, and might reasonable be a higher level spell. As is, the rules text is pretty clear cut. A different spell with a different mechanic might be preferable, but if you're going to redesign it, then all crunch aspects should be considered for balance. A redesigned spell might allow for saving throws, or have a different grapple bonus, or a different spell level.

The point is, even without the FAQ, the rules are pretty straightforward, and the spell is at worst a little weird (but tentacles which are aware enough to grapple creatures mean that it's not absurd to have them be aware enough to only try once), but if you don't like the flavor, the solution should not be to simple rule it differently without considering balance. If you like a different fluff and adapt the crunch to match it (a fine practice), you should finish the job and consider other aspects of the spell as well.

My stance: the fluff argument of believability is important, but doesn't mean you should rewrite the crunch without considering balance.

 

[FoxWander]

In any case, the rules text seems crystal clear to me on rules crunch - they attempt to grapple creatures in the area, and once they've grappled them, they attempt to do damage each round. They explicitly stop that when the creature escapes (from the grapple). They explicitly try grappling all those which enter the area at a later time.

Emphasis mine of course. You've made an excellent summary of the spell, except for the sentence I highlighted. Nothing in the text/crunch of the spell supports that the tentacles stop attempting to grapple anyone in the area. Which is the point I made when I jumped into this. The text of the spell specifically states that "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check." There are no exceptions written in the spell. There's nothing to indicate that creatures who escape the initial grapple attempt will be unmolested unless they leave and then re-enter the area of the spell. Quite the contrary- if you're in the area of the spell, you will get grappled. If you already are grappled, then the tentacles try to crush you for the indicated damage.

The idea that there is only ONE attempt to grapple creatures in the area not only makes no sense, but it isn't supported by the text/crunch of the spell.

 

[mvincent]

My stance: the fluff argument of believability is important, but doesn't mean you should rewrite the crunch without considering balance.

While I am normally a proponent of the FAQ, that seems like an overly literal reading. The writer's intent, the description and logic suggest that the tentacles would continue to attack creatures in the area.

Have we had a poll on this one yet? I'd be curious about the results.

 

[eamon]

The idea that there is only ONE attempt to grapple creatures in the area not only makes no sense, but it isn't supported by the text/crunch of the spell.

The spell speaks of a grapple check. Not one per round, or one at the start of each creatures turn or any such phrasing; the spell asks for a grapple check.

Compare to Entangle: "A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement."

Entangle mentions what happens for the duration of the spell and mentions what happens initially.

Consider Web: "Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, [...]. If the save fails, [...]. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10."

Web mentions what happens for the duration of the spell and mentions what happens initially.

Consider Stinking cloud: "Living creatures in the cloud become nauseated. This condition lasts as long as the creature is in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds after it leaves. (Roll separately for each nauseated character.) Any creature that succeeds on its save but remains in the cloud must continue to save each round on your turn."

Stinking cloud mentions what happens for the duration of the spell and mentions what happens initially.

And black tentacles? " Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage.

Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes."

Black tentacles mentions what happens on each round, and mentions what happens initally. Just like every other spell. It does not say anything about repeated grapple attempts - because there aren't any.

You may find the concept of black tentacles odd and badly thought out, but the game mechanics are hardly different from many other spells - they say straightforwardly what to do: Attempt to start a grapple, then, once grappled, attempt to do damage once per round.

 

[mvincent]

The spell speaks of a grapple check. Not one per round, or one at the start of each creatures turn or any such phrasing

Well, the spell does say:
"they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent..."

True, it says this in regard to those grappled, but it does make clear that the tentacles are continually aggressive (causing grapple checks each round in this case), and gives an idea of the writer's intent (despite the exact, literal wording). I can think of dozens of D&D rules that would be completely wrong if followed literally.

What do you think the writer's intent was?