How Dragonbane Pointed out the Clashing Desires of My Gaming Group

[Jacob Lewis]

Only four pages into this thread, but I can tell you one of the problems. Your players are not being honest with themselves. They think they want a roleplaying game when most of them don't even care about roleplaying, or anything outside of combat. There are other games that accommodate this itch more succinctly than most RPG systems can do. What they want and what they think they want are entirely different things.

You need to take RPGs off the table and introduce them to some RPG-adjacent options, like BOARD GAMES! Maybe they haven't experienced board games lately, so they may not understand how more complex and immersive modern games are. A lot of them offer campaign-style progress and model themselves after the RPG experience. Only they do it with tighter focus and themes.

You also need to take yourself out of the GM chair and look for happiness some other way. Join the group as a player as part of the team that has fun and not work thanklessly trying to cater to impossible demands.

Try something like Zombicide! Its straightforward, requires teamwork, modular, replayable, easy to learn, and loads of fun just taking out hordes of undead. Journeys in Middle Earth is a great LotR dungeon/wilderness crawler enhanced by app program that serves as digital GM with great immersion. And so many more.

Point is you need to get them to get over their misconceptions and try something else entirely. At this point, you know better about what they want (and need) than they do themselves.

 

[Scott Christian]

I’ve long struggled trying to find the “perfect” system for my group, as evidenced in my Post-Mortems about various 5E campaigns, Savage Worlds Holler, the recent 8-month campaign in 4E, and a series of indie one-shots including Dread, Monster of the Week, and Alice is Missing. Finally, I decided that there isn't a "perfect" system - but that we should switch it up to appeal to everyone in the group, players and GM alike.

The 5E and 4E games were especially taxing on me. Finally, I was asked “what would you like to run?” I created a spreadsheet of all my available systems to try to maximize what I wanted, which would be a departure from the very tactical experience of 4E, which would allow me and the player who had felt a little neglected on the story/roleplaying/exploration fronts, which still wouldn’t be as deadly as many OSR systems, which still had some character customization, thrilling battles, still in print, etc.

After pondering this for over a month, I picked Dragonbane, which was a system I’d played a handful of times. I thought it would be good for myself and the one player who likes the story/roleplaying/exploration angle, and the other players who like more of a “beer and pretzels” style game. I created a campaign notebook to detail the characters, their motivations. Took notes about the NPCs and the quests. This was going to be my first campaign in years that would “matter.”

In our first session we had a dangerous fight, some wilderness survival, roleplaying in the town, meeting NPCs, shopping, picking up quests, etc. It was a very typical fantasy RPG session for a first session of a campaign. After the conclusion, I asked the players how they thought it went, and here are some of the responses…

• didn’t like tracking inventory
• didn't like rolling a survival check to camp in the wilderness
• thought their turns were boring ("all I did one round was roll to defend")
• characters felt “puny”
• didn't like that boss monsters played by different rules
• didn't like random character creation
• didn't like inventory slots
• complaints that there was roleplaying
• complaints there was exploration
• didn't like card initiative
• didn’t like that it used the metric system (even when I converted it to “squares” for them)
• didn’t like not getting all their HP back every day
• didn’t like pushing their rolls and getting disadvantage conditions on future ability checks
• didn’t like that they couldn’t roll to tell when an NPC was hiding a secret (even when I basically just told them that was the case)
• didn’t like that they wouldn’t be getting levels (it’s a skill-based game, not class-based)
• “I get bored when there’s not fighting. But you can let other people roleplay and explore.”
• I was asked “what made you think we’d actually like this game?”

So, I have one player and myself who prefer this style of gaming and two other players who honestly should be playing Gloomhaven. However, the “Gloomhaven” group consists of my wife – whom I obviously can’t kick out of the group – and my neighbor who brought the more story-driven player to the group and probably wouldn’t want to be uninvited.

Just to distill what they want…

• No real roleplaying stakes or exploration
• Interesting tactical combat that isn’t actually threatening
• Full HP and power recharge between battles
• Can’t be a miniatures wargame because it needs to be fought in squares – not measuring tape (my wife’s specification)
• Handwave all tracking of resources, including rations, torches, arrows, etc.

Anyways, when I post about being in a bad mood about gaming on here, this is why. Just the utter crushing feeling of running games for people who hate my concept of RPGs and don’t even appreciate when I suffer for months to run the games they prefer (like the 8-month 4E campaign). They won’t run them – and even if they did – I wouldn’t want to play them.

Your description of what they want can be 5e. You and the other can still get your jam on with roleplaying while the other two wait or are in a separate "cutscene." I mean, honestly, what you are describing is found at a lot of tables. It's just most tables have players that understand not all parts of the game are going to be their favorites.

 

[R_J_K75]

Yeah it's hard to tell at this stage. I'll definitely take a look at that SRD when it's all released.
I have a feeling that I already have a better version of 5E for me without waiting until 2025. I own hard copies of Level Up and Flee Mortals. I have PDFs of a lot of Sly Flourish stuff I can use.
Again, I'm coming from a background of having purchased and studied a lot of new systems in a vain attempt to find the "perfect" game. It's time to focus on what I already have for a bit.

Sounds like a lot of work combining 3-4 systems, but hopefully its worth the effort and you end up with a game you and your group are happy with. Good luck.

 

[MGibster]

Anyways, when I post about being in a bad mood about gaming on here, this is why. Just the utter crushing feeling of running games for people who hate my concept of RPGs and don’t even appreciate when I suffer for months to run the games they prefer (like the 8-month 4E campaign).

I've had a fairly regular group for the last decade, and in a lot of ways it's made me forget just how hard it can be to form gaming cabal with people you are compatible with. While I've had a solid core group, there have been changes due to illness and people moving. My biggest problem right now is that sometimes it seems like a few of my players aren't interested in the game, I mean their characters actively go out of the way to avoid the plot.

In this campaign, the players are students at Miskatonic University and we're using the Savage Worlds rules. A few sessions back, three of the PCs were on their way to meet some bootleggers at midnight. They met with one of the bootleggers a little early, before the gang leader arrived, and he warned them that they wanted no part of this on account of a very, very dangerous woman who was involved. Two of the PCs immediately said, "Okay," and decided not to continue while the third, the one who set up the meeting, went ahead and entered the building.

What follows is a short argument between the one of the players who stayed with the car who said he was going to drive away.

Me: It's not your car, so you don't have the keys.
Player: Cars back then didn't have ignition starters.
Me: You're right. But this is a fancy car, and you need to turn the key to connect the circuit. If you want to hotwire the car, make a Thievery roll.
Player: I don't have Thievery.

The other two were waiting outside when a second group of gangsters, belonging to a rival gang, show up. One Player said he was going to try to run them down with the car until I pointed out that he never started the car. "Oh, I thought you were kidding about that." So instead he decided to honk the horn to attract their attention. As they gangsters walked towards the car, he exited the vehicle and ran which means he abandoned the other PC in the car.

It was just bizarre behavior all around and it made me realize I had a bored player on hand. He doesn't care for games with a lot of investigating or role playing as he's more interested in beating things up. Which is fine, I'm all for beating stuff up, but I'm going to have to have a talk with him and one other.

The other player actively walks in the opposite direction of plot hooks. He woke up in his dorm in the middle of the night to see a mysterious girl, aged 15-16, had snuck in. He pretended to be asleep, and when she exited his room he got up, locked the door, and went back to sleep. He had absolutely no curiosity about who she was and didn't feel the need to investigate. It was just bizarre.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Now, here's the flip side of the coin: You need to stop imposing your ideas of what you think is needed for their ideal RPG to be any good. If all they're looking for is a series of combats they can win and move on to the next, then that is all you need to give them. And be THANKFUL that you have players who are willing to show up regularly regardless if they are getting exactly what they want, or what you want. Because a lot of times, compromise is what it takes to keep a group playing together despite differences. And the fact that everyone sat through 8 supposedly unsatisfying months of a 4e campaign shows you have a stable group that includes your spouse! Do you know how many people out here have only ever dreamed of having such a gaming circle available to them?

Now, I don't recall all the details of your last raving regarding what happened in your 4e game. It seemed everyone was mostly ok with the parts that appealed to them the most (i.e. fighting monsters, kicking butt, and taking loot), and less thrilled about the parts that you insisted were the best parts of the system (i.e. skill challenges, etc) even though they clearly did not care/ask for those bits.

I get not being able to run the games you want the way you want, but in this case, you're being asked to do less and focus on only parts of the game that appeal to your players. They don't want to give you a wish list for magic items? So what! It's not a requirement. Pick out the items for them, or roll random. In fact, strip it down to Essentials only so there's four books you need, and run Encounters for them. Use the Chaos Scar for a bare-bones setting and a dungeon-of-the-week style game. 4e is literally the easiest D&D system for DMs to throw stuff together that will balance and entertain players for a few hours a night.

You're just as hung up on your own ideas and expectations as your players. That is largely why you've been suffering with this for so long. I'm surprised your group is still trying at this point, but I suspect there is more to your group than playing styles and preferences. Honestly, it is that relationship and bond with these people that matter most. Take care.

 

[R_J_K75]

Maybe they haven't experienced board games lately, so they may not understand how more complex and immersive modern games are. A lot of them offer campaign-style progress and model themselves after the RPG experience.

This is what we are doing. Last years or so we've been trying out various TTRPGs, played them for a bit and couldn't settle on one we liked so we moved onto something else. It just became apparent that we were just more interested in hanging out as there was always a lot of distractions and side conversations, etc. Week before last we played our first game of the Arkham Horror board game. It was fun and while looking online for play walk throughs, I saw that EDGE Studio is in the process of releasing an Arkham Horror RPG, and they have already put out a starter set. It is a really well put together starter set. An adventure, premade PCs, and everything you need to play out of the box. It's designed to be learned as you play. There are little game rules, and no character creation rules. I'm just using the Arkham Horror board game/RPG as an example for @Retreater but I'm sure there are other games that can do the same. I'm hoping that we can play the board game when we want a less immersive/complex game but then use the RPG when we want something of a more traditional roleplaying game. As they are both in the same setting the transition from one to the other should be pretty seamless in theory, a win-win for everyone.

 

[SJB]

Me: It's not your car, so you don't have the keys.
Player: Cars back then didn't have ignition starters.
Me: You're right. But this is a fancy car, and you need to turn the key to connect the circuit. If you want to hotwire the car, make a Thievery roll.
Player: I don't have Thievery.

Sounds like Quentin Tarantino.

 

[Maggan]

I’ve long struggled trying to find the “perfect” system for my group, as evidenced in my Post-Mortems about various 5E campaigns, Savage Worlds Holler, the recent 8-month campaign in 4E, and a series of indie one-shots including Dread, Monster of the Week, and Alice is Missing. Finally, I decided that there isn't a "perfect" system - but that we should switch it up to appeal to everyone in the group, players and GM alike.

If it's any consolation, I think my group would enjoy your style of game mastering.

 

[Retreater]

If all they're looking for is a series of combats they can win and move on to the next, then that is all you need to give them.

Right. But I think a skirmish style boardgame like Gloomhaven would be better for that than me busting my brain on a weekly basis to create dynamic encounters with a system not designed to do that.

And the fact that everyone sat through 8 supposedly unsatisfying months of a 4e campaign shows you have a stable group that includes your spouse!

To be fair, it was "unsatisfying" to me. I think they were ok just coming and eating snacks, watching TikTok videos between their turns, etc.
Concerning my spouse being in my group, it's a blessing and curse.
There's a lot of blame put on me to deliver precisely what she wants. She's literally said things like "I don't care if you're having fun."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Now, the game's cost, which seems to be a lot of people's complaints. But, I'd say most games seem to run between $5-20USD a session, which can make it about $5/hr.

As far as 'obscure systems', now, you see mostly D&D, but you will also see a lot of various editions of WoD. I've seen Amber Diceless, GURPS, a decent amount of CoC - including people running the complete Masks of Nylarhotep.

Before I found the Traveller game I'm in, I played in a few through StartPlaying. The nice thing is, if the game wasn't for me (often a play style difference, or weird mechanical rulings by the GM), you're absolutely free to keep it movin' and leave the game - I find THAT'S pretty nice for avoiding what OP is talking about with a friend-group.

I've never played a game of CoC -- a relatively common game, to be sure -- and I would love to play a one shot of it some time. The Summer Knights online convention this year was mostly 5E (and a lot of Adventurers League stuff), so there wasn't that opportunity then.

I can definitely see playing CoC or one of the WoD games I've never gotten to play as a one-shot some time.