D&D 5E How game-breaking is it if GW Fighting Style applies to smites?

[jayoungr]

I've got a paladin in my game who took Great Weapon Master the Great Weapon fighting style and wanted to know whether the damage bonus applies to smites. Apparently, there are conflicting rulings about it online.

I tend to think that a strict reading of the feature implies that it applies to weapon damage only, not to enhancements like smites; but on the other hand, I like to rule in players' favor when possible; but on the third hand, I don't want to accidentally break my game and regret it. So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this combo in action, where the damage bonus is allowed to apply to smites, and can comment on how unbalancing it actually is. Thanks.

NOTE: My question is not about how the rule works as written. My question is about what would happen if I make the more permissive ruling and allow the two options to stack.

NOTE 2: I'm an idiot. This question is about the Great Weapon Fighting Style, not the Great Weapon Master feat. I should have double-checked the character sheet before posting here. My apologies.

 

[Stormonu]

Its powerful, but I don't see anything that stops it from working. It will have the most notable effect in Tier 1, and generally only ends the combat one round or so quicker.

The bigger question is how important fights are to your game? If they're "the big show", it'll get aggravating how quickly the opponents go down (especially to a Paladin with a 20 Chr + Oath of Devotion sacred weapon). If your game tends to focus more in other areas beyond combat, it will still make a mark but there still should be plenty else going on that it won't have a large overall effect.

 

[Reynard]

In my experience, the best way to tell whether a potential house rules is broken is to propose it to the players but tell them that adversaries will also use the rule.

 

[Zardnaar]

There's a reason it's getting nerfed. Not only does it apply t smites but you can apply it on every attack and on critical hits.

Second strongest feat in the game after sharpshooter which is a bit better.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A smite is triggered by hitting with a weapon attack, so I see no reason it wouldn't work.

Also keep in mind that the more damage you do, the worse GWM is for your overall damage.

Let's say you normally have on average a 75% to hit for an average of 8 damage. GWM reduces your hit chance to 50% but raises your damage to 18.

Without GWM: 6 DMG
With GWM: 9 DMG

GWM results in a 50% damage improvement.

Now let's add 9 damage from smite to each.

Without GWM: 12.75 DMG
With GWM: 13.5 DMG

GWM still does more damage, but only by around 6%.

 

[jayoungr]

The bigger question is how important fights are to your game? If they're "the big show", it'll get aggravating how quickly the opponents go down (especially to a Paladin with a 20 Chr + Oath of Devotion sacred weapon). If your game tends to focus more in other areas beyond combat, it will still make a mark but there still should be plenty else going on that it won't have a large overall effect.

My players are a mixed group, but I'd say some of them are in it mostly for the combat. I'm worried that the paladin will outshine them by so much that they'll feel underpowered.

 

[Clint_L]

OP, can you clarify what you mean by "applies to smites"? Do you mean, if you reduce an opponent to 0 HP via smite, then you can immediately make another attack because of GWM? RAW would suggest that no, since the smite is not a "weapon attack," it should not trigger that part of GWM, which is about the "momentum" of the physical attack carrying through to another target.

"...when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one..."

But if you want to be permissive and let it work off smites, I doubt it would have much impact - it seems like a fun bonus on occasion.

As far as combining GWM attacks (-5 to hit/+10 to damage) with smite: sure, that's fine. Probably not a great strategy most of the time, though.

 

[ECMO3]

I've got a paladin in my game who took Great Weapon Master and wanted to know whether the damage bonus applies to smites. Apparently, there are conflicting rulings about it online.

I tend to think that a strict reading of the feat implies that it applies to weapon damage only, not to enhancements like smites; but on the other hand, I like to rule in players' favor when possible; but on the third hand, I don't want to accidentally break my game and regret it. So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this combo in action, where the damage bonus is allowed to apply to smites, and can comment on how unbalancing it actually is. Thanks.

NOTE: My question is not about how the rule works as written. My question is about what would happen if I make the more permissive ruling and allow the two options to stack.

Not game breaking at all. GWM is a pretty weak feat overall. RAW the damage bonus absolutely applies and stacks with smites and there is no reason it wouldn't.

Divine Smite:
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.

GWM:
You've learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:

• On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
• Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.

You take the -5, if you hit you do +10 damage and can then choose to smite with whatever level spell you have. You can also smite on the bonus action attack if you get it, and on a Paladin this is actually the bigger benefit.

TBH a Paladin is generally going to do more damage WITHOUT using the -5/+10 unless you have low ACs, frequent advantage or so many fights you run out of spell slots regularly. Rule of thumb is the more dice you get when you roll damage, the less effective the +10 is.

For example - 5th level paladin with greatsword 16 strength (+6 attack bonus) who uses a 1st level smite on an attack against AC15

GWM using +5/-10 average damage per attack: 10.95

GWM not using +5/-10 average damage per attack: 12.2

Paladin who took a strength ASI and has 18 strength damage per attack: 13.8

Now in all fairness the character using the +5/-10 is using slots at a slower rate than the other two examples.

If we are talking about OP Paladins, an Arcane Trickster or Sword Bard who takes 2 levels in Paladin for smite is far more "gamebreaking" but still underpowered compared to a full caster who concentrates on spells.

 

[ECMO3]

Second strongest feat in the game after sharpshooter which is a bit better.

Sharpshooter is a strong feat. GWM is not IME. In a game that splits all 3 pillars GWM is well below average and below an ASI generally. In a combat oriented game it is middle of the road and about equal with an ASI.

Based on my play experience if you are playing a game that is combat heavy I think the following feats are all generally more powerful than GWM:

Sharpshooter
Sentinel
Fey Touched
Drow High Magic
Second Chance
Fey Teleportation
XBE
Alert
Dragon Fear
Elven Accuracy
Martial Adept
Fighting Initiate
Magic Initiate
Lucky
Heavy Armor Master
Giant feats (all of them)
Crusher
Slasher
Skulker
Gift of the Gem Dragon
Dragonlance feats (all of them)

 

[Zardnaar]

Sharpshooter is a strong feat. GWM is not IME. In a game that splits all 3 pillars GWM is well below average and below an ASI generally. In a combat oriented game it is middle of the road and about equal with an ASI.

Based on my play experience if you are playing a game that is combat heavy I think the following feats are all generally more powerful than GWM:

Sharpshooter
Sentinel
Fey Touched
Drow High Magic
Second Chance
Fey Teleportation
XBE
Alert
Dragon Fear
Elven Accuracy
Martial Adept
Fighting Initiate
Magic Initiate
Lucky
Heavy Armor Master
Giant feats (all of them)
Crusher
Slasher
Skulker
Gift of the Gem Dragon
Dragonlance feats (all of them)

Probably should have said phb. There's been a bit of powercreep.

I have seen a PAM+ GWM Paladin in action though. Queen of the nova strike.