How good is the new MM? (Thread split)

[Solvarn]

This.

I'm currently playing a human wizard. He has one spell that's repeatedly won battles. Storm Pillar. Urban environments (cramped battlefields) + storm pillar = win. His other two At Wills are Freezing Burst and Thunderwave (he also used to have Chilling Cloud instead of Freezing Burst - but the fighter has cold resistance). Would Magic Missile be better single target DPR than anything else he has? Yes. Has he ever wanted to cast it? Only when the bad guys are too far away. Beating up on that last one monster is about the only time he's wanted it.

Meanwhile he's thrown people off cliffs with Freezing Burst, blocked columns of reinforcements with storm pillar, and thrown someone the far side of a door and slammed it hastily with Thunderwave. By the time Magic Missile is worthwhile in the average fight, they are already in a mopping up exercise. It's the early rounds that matter. (And if I were calculating just on DPR, I'd be playing a sorceror). Hmm... the one time I'd probably want Magic Missile would be against a Solo. And there I'd be far better with a debuff (Chilling Cloud if our tanks could hold it still) because a -2 to hit would be giving 5 monster-equivalents a -2 to hit. And that is easily worth about the average five points of damage the Magic Missile would do. The only reason my wizard would even consider MM is if he picked up a Masters Wand of Magic Missile (and frankly he'd rather have a Masters Wand of Thunderwave).

Oh, and KarinsDad, a Wis of 13 is required for the Enlarge Spell feat. Which rocks so hard that it's well worth giving up that 20.

My friend in our campaign plays an enchanter and I find that although is damage is pretty crappy his controlling is exemplary. That being said MM is really a niche spell and there are quite a few situations in which it is outshined by other at-wills. I'd have a hard time justifying it as a choice for an at-will personally with my playstyle.

 

[Aegeri]

Storm Pillar, as written, doesn't really work right. Since it only goes off on the monster's turn, they can ready an action to charge past the pillar and take no damage from it because it's not their turn. Of course, you can also ready an action to force-move them next to it on their turn (but not on the readied charge, because that's not their turn). It just leads to all sorts of stupid readied-action shenanigans. If it just went off on voluntary movement regardless of turn, it'd be much less dumb.

Bear in mind while everything you wrote is 100% true, that is seriously metagamy. While I would suspect some very intelligent monsters could certainly take advantage of it, anything stupid like a zombie that does this should (legitimately) have your players really complaining about you being unfair.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Bear in mind while everything you wrote is 100% true, that is seriously metagamy. While I would suspect some very intelligent monsters could certainly take advantage of it, anything stupid like a zombie that does this should (legitimately) have your players really complaining about you being unfair.

Yeah, not to mention that as a DM I can say with great authority that I am WAY too lazy to go to this kind of ridiculous extreme. I want the fight to get on, not devolve into exploitation of strange rules loop holes. Sure, the power could have been better written when it got errata, but the version we have works and 95% of the players in the world have no idea they could even pull such a shenanigan (I'm certain all of mine fall into this category). In fact half the people on Earth that would even understand it are probably reading this thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

Bear in mind while everything you wrote is 100% true, that is seriously metagamy. While I would suspect some very intelligent monsters could certainly take advantage of it, anything stupid like a zombie that does this should (legitimately) have your players really complaining about you being unfair.

The power itself is seriously metagamey.

This set of lightning:

a) knows enemies from allies.
b) knows enemies turns from enemy non-turns.

Whomever wrote it (and whomever fixed it) should be barred from future product development.

The lightning shouldn't distinguish enemies from allies, nor should it distinguish a NPC's turn vs. non-turn. It's an elemental force. It shouldn't be intelligent.

What's worse is that b) didn't use to be the case. If you read the original power, the damage occurred anytime an enemy moved into an adjacent square. Forced movement, whatever?

Instead of fixing the multiple time "forced movement" problem with it by stating that the enemy could only be damaged once per round with the power (which would stop the Readied action silliness), they fixed it with b).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah, this isn't my experience at all. Generalist Wizards are almost always WIS secondary. STR and CON provide little benefit for them.

Str, granted. But I'd hardly say more hit points, surges, NADs, and helping a class feature for staff wizards provides little benefit. If you count Mages as Wizards (I do), and go generalist, Con probably provides the most benefit for a secondary stat.

It also obviously meshes well with Orb of Imposition, which is far and away the best choice for a generalist Wizard.

There's something to be said for Staff of Defence. And on a low sample, the Staff of Defence is the type of wizard I've seen most often. (I prefer the OoI personally).

What is left?

Mages of all types, sorceror-wannabes (blasters - normally staff wizards with Staff of Ruin).

Now, we can ask about Staff of Defense based wizards. The thing here is these are all going to be generalists.

Or staff of ruin based blasters. Or slightly paranoid and any build.

These guys are all about Thunderwave,

Huh? In my experience, Staff of Defence based wizards are often wizards who got tired of being beaten up in older editions and want to stay off the melee line - but like the extra defence. Needing to cast Thunderwave means something's gone wrong for them. And I think that most of this category are switching to Beguiling Strands.

I mean any question of what sorts of builds are more common than others is mostly going to be pure speculation. I know that ALL of the Wizards that have been run in my game were WIS secondary. Every single one. I don't pretend that is much of a sample of anything, but every time I poke around with optimizing a wizard WIS is always coming to the top as a desirable thing to keep high.

Yes. But you're like me. Orb of Imposition all the way. Why be a wizard if not to make the monsters cry with frustration? And I suspect your group takes the same approach...

Storm Pillar, as written, doesn't really work right. Since it only goes off on the monster's turn, they can ready an action to charge past the pillar and take no damage from it because it's not their turn. Of course, you can also ready an action to force-move them next to it on their turn (but not on the readied charge, because that's not their turn). It just leads to all sorts of stupid readied-action shenanigans. If it just went off on voluntary movement regardless of turn, it'd be much less dumb.

Any one metagaming that much to deal with one at will would get either me DM ruling it to be "voluntary movement" (including dominated) or some somewhat sarcastic responses.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The power itself is seriously metagamey.

This set of lightning:

a) knows enemies from allies.
b) knows enemies turns from enemy non-turns.

Whomever wrote it (and whomever fixed it) should be barred from future product development.

It's one of the most interesting at wills.

The lightning shouldn't distinguish enemies from allies, nor should it distinguish a NPC's turn vs. non-turn. It's an elemental force. It shouldn't be intelligent.

Why shouldn't elementals be at least vaguely intelligent. Probably better would be something like "All targets. As they enter an adjacent square, the wizard may take an opportunity action to render a target immune to the storm pillar for a round". But that gets clunky.

What's worse is that b) didn't use to be the case. If you read the original power, the damage occurred anytime an enemy moved into an adjacent square. Forced movement, whatever?

And people were using it to play "ring around the storm pillar" and "monster tennis".

Instead of fixing the multiple time "forced movement" problem with it by stating that the enemy could only be damaged once per round with the power (which would stop the Readied action silliness), they fixed it with b).

Once per round would nerf the thing through the floor. It's already highly situational, but can lock things down nicely. Once per round would mean that it did no more damage than e.g. Scorching Burst. Once per target per turn on the other hand would have been far more useful as it would have had nasty synergy with forced movement without being overwhelming.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why shouldn't elementals be at least vaguely intelligent.

Why should all D&D energy be linked to an elemental like Eberron?

Once per round would nerf the thing through the floor. It's already highly situational, but can lock things down nicely. Once per round would mean that it did no more damage than e.g. Scorching Burst. Once per target per turn on the other hand would have been far more useful as it would have had nasty synergy with forced movement without being overwhelming.

Did you think I meant once per rount total? No, I meant once per round per enemy. And even once per round total is very useful, none of the enemies can get past it unless one foe decides to take the damage is as powerful control and damage-wise as any single target At Will power, so why would you consider that to be "nerfed through the floor? Are all single target At Will powers worthless?

Today, it does nothing. The enemy readies and is past it.

If one had a "once per round per enemy" rule, than any PC could use forced movement to move a foe through it or the enemy himself could damage himself (just like today). That's a lot more utility than today.

In fact, it should be once per round per creature so that enemies can move PCs into it as well. PCs should not be immune (except possibly the caster) to this spell. They have too many "enemy only" area effects as is. It makes the game too predictable when the PCs are safe from their own area spells.

Spells like Beguiling Strands ends up making PCs fairly safe from almost any PC area spell (force the foes away into an area, then nuke them). zzzzzzz

 

[Locutus Zero]

I think he means once per round nerfs it because on a single move, as it is now, the enemy can get hit 3 times (or more in rare cases). I agree that it is poorly written, but it wouldn't be an issue at the table as any group worth playing would table rule that to something more sensible.

I can't think of a non-clunky way to phrase it, which was probably their problem at WotC, but I would table rule it to remove the "on its turn" part and add on to the very end "This damage does not apply when triggered by forced movement.".

Edit: Also, I agree that it should not target only enemies. Flavor-wise, selective targeting could be justified if it were a higher level power or an encounter (it would obviously have to be beefed up), but for a level 1 at-will? I imagine a wizard wouldn't be able to create an area that could tell the difference between enemies and allies all on its own so early and so easily.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why should all D&D energy be linked to an elemental like Eberron?

Who says it all should? But part of the point of Storm Pillar is to give the summoners an At Will that won't break the game.

Did you think I meant once per rount total? No, I meant once per round per enemy. And even once per round total is very useful, none of the enemies can get past it unless one foe decides to take the damage

At that point the square-blocking seems like the useful utility. And it can be - but then my wizard is built for control.

is as powerful control and damage-wise as any single target At Will power,

Except most of them. D6+int is low.

so why would you consider that to be "nerfed through the floor? Are all single target At Will powers worthless?

Any single target at will power that only did d6+int damage would be. Hell, Scorching Burst does that damage, it's area, and was considered weak even before Essentials trumped it.

Today, it does nothing. The enemy readies and is past it.

I know no DM who metagames to that level. And would consider a DM exploiting such an obvious loophole in the rules that obviously cuts against the RAI to be a poor DM.

If one had a "once per round per enemy" rule, than any PC could use forced movement to move a foe through it or the enemy himself could damage himself (just like today). That's a lot more utility than today.

Once per turn per enemy would allow that - with some repition, but no ring-around-the-storm-pillar, PC-ready, or "Dominate and sprint" shenanigans. It would, however, cut off blocking an entire corridor for 3d6+3*statics for anyone who tried to get past. Capping it at 1d6+static with an avoidable effect makes it lose a lot of its control and it's seldom a bread and butter spell.

In fact, it should be once per round per creature so that enemies can move PCs into it as well. PCs should not be immune (except possibly the caster) to this spell. They have too many "enemy only" area effects as is. It makes the game too predictable when the PCs are safe from their own area spells.

I'd argue that storm pillar's an oddball anyway. But I could live with it being unfriendly.

 

[KarinsDad]

Once per turn per enemy would allow that - with some repition, but no ring-around-the-storm-pillar, PC-ready, or "Dominate and sprint" shenanigans. It would, however, cut off blocking an entire corridor for 3d6+3*statics for anyone who tried to get past. Capping it at 1d6+static with an avoidable effect makes it lose a lot of its control and it's seldom a bread and butter spell.

It still blocks off a corridor. If you want to get past, you take D6+stuff damage. That's a choice and if the DM chooses to have the NPCs take the damage, it's also auto-hit for the Wizard. Who doesn't want a small area power that does auto-hit for normal damage?

The damaging Wizard Wall spells start at level 9. I don't think a first level At Will should be doing 3D6+3*stuff damage per foe. For an At Will, that's too much damage.

As for the way it is written today, there are Immediate Interrupt powers that could slide a foe right back through 3 or more squares today for xD6+x*stuff damage on that foe's turn. That's too powerful for an At Will combined with an Encounter that doesn't use up a Standard action.

Nearly all first level At Will powers are D6+stuff or D8+stuff for the damage portion. Allowing D6+stuff with auto-hit if the foe is forced into it per foe is way powerful enough. There is no need for 3D6+3*stuff in that scenario.

With the "damage more than once per round, anytime in the round" type of house rule:

Standard Action Round One: Storm Pillar
Standard Action Round Two: Beguiling Strands

That could be as much as 5D6+5* stuff per enemy for an Enchanter if it were not damage once per round. He not only locks down foes on round one and possibly does damage to them, he also can do serious damage to them on round two. With just two At Will powers. This does not even take into account an Action Point.

Even damage once per turn could get abused.