How is FR changing with 4E?

[Draksila]

ProfessorCirno, I hate to point this out, but what you're really saying is that everything you hated about FR is still there. In my and my friends' years DMing, when giving players input into the starting area of a campaign we were going to run, I've found that at least 80% of the time the players end up accidentally describing Shadowdale or Waterdeep. Not by name, but by features they want in their starting city or rural area.

"Popular inn run by motherly host? Check. Ruined castle nearby to explore? Check. Nearby forest full of dark and shadowy things? Check. Ultra-wise sage and historian who can provide tips and clues? Che... dangit, we just did Shadowdale again, didn't we?"

Also, as a small nitpick, Tyr is the god of justice. Helm is the god of duty. Torm, my personal favorite FR deity because he's the only one who's not written as occasionally being a dipstick, is the god of duty, loyalty, and honor. Tyr's known for being a bit blind to compassion in his pursuit of justice, and Helm is known for being as emotional as a wall of granite. The two of them killing each other wouldn't surprise me, given the right incentive. What does seem out of character to me is Tyr being interested in courting Tymora, and Tymora being okay with settling down.

I'm a bit worried about what they're doing to Lathander; he was the most popular deity insofar as my players were concerned, and we've seen more clerics and paladins under his banner than anyone else's in over 20 years running the Realms. If they muck up his personality too much, my players might riot. As far as I'm concerned, though, I'm fine so long as Torm's still the grandfatherly protector he has been since they decided to flesh him out. And if he's not, I'll just retcon it so he is. Which might apply for Lathander, too.

 

[rounser]

I'm a bit worried about what they're doing to Lathander; he was the most popular deity insofar as my players were concerned, and we've seen more clerics and paladins under his banner than anyone else's in over 20 years running the Realms. If they muck up his personality too much, my players might riot. As far as I'm concerned, though, I'm fine so long as Torm's still the grandfatherly protector he has been since they decided to flesh him out. And if he's not, I'll just retcon it so he is. Which might apply for Lathander, too.

I suspect that the Lathander thing is at least partially due to Amaunator's presence in Baldur's Gate II. Because of that alone, more people probably know about Amaunator than Lathander, now...

 

[Keefe the Thief]

To sum it up. WotC decided to blow up the Realms to cater to people that hate the Realms because of it's detailed history, too many deities, and too many high level NPC's among other things. The setting has quite literally been blown to peices, and the time line has been advanced 100 years. The really bad part is that has been precipitated by some of the more powerful FR deities suddenly start acting as if they are characters in a bad soap opera instead of the hyper-intelligent powerful beings they are supposed to be. It's got a love triangle, betrayal, etc. It's really bad, amateurish, and forced. In short, it's sort of thing you'd expect to see from a homebrew campaign created by a 13 year old with ADD, not a highly popular, richly detailed setting ran by a (supposedly) professional RPG company.

Of course. Because the Realms were so popular because of their deep, logical, shakespearean stories and components. Like "a big city beneath another city ruled by flying skulls." Or "a big dungeon created by a 1000 year old mad wizard who creates nasty teleport traps for fun." Or "to the west: South America! To the East: The Mongols! Further to the east: All kinds of stereotypes about China and Japan mixed into an empire!"

Give me a break. I run a White Box campaign currently, and those changes plus a 100 year leap give me another interesting era to play in. Of course, it seems i either hate the realms or am an 13-year-old with ADD, so...

 

[Shazman]

I'm pretty sure that there are still going to be plenty of DMs that still use NPCs out of character. That's a DM flaw, not a setting flaw.

I've said this many times as well, but it falls on deaf ears. All of the major complaints against the Realms which were also used as justification for the destruction of the Realms can all be attributed to either bad DMing or fear that they have to know everything about hte Realms to play in it.

If you are concerned about your campaign focusing on Drizzt or Elminster, you are either paranoid or have had a bad DM use either these characters or another pet NPC as the star of his campaign. What does this have to do with the campaign setting? If the DM wants to use a DMPC as the focus for his campaign, he's going to do it regardless of setting. This is bad DMing, not typical Forgotten Realms DMing. All of the supposed reasons to "reinvent" the Realms boil down to experiences with or fears of bad DMing or having modules and DMs force PC's to know lots of Realms lore. I haven't seen any FR modules that rely on encyclopedic knowledge of the setting, so I don't see that as a problem. If your DM requires this kind of knowledge or has his DMPC be the star of the show, blame the DM and get him to change his ways or get a new DM. Don't blame the campaign setting. Blowing up a campaign setting because of bad DMing, whether perceived or real, is just plain stupid.

 

[Shazman]

Of course. Because the Realms were so popular because of their deep, logical, shakespearean stories and components. Like "a big city beneath another city ruled by flying skulls." Or "a big dungeon created by a 1000 year old mad wizard who creates nasty teleport traps for fun." Or "to the west: South America! To the East: The Mongols! Further to the east: All kinds of stereotypes about China and Japan mixed into an empire!"

Give me a break. I run a White Box campaign currently, and those changes plus a 100 year leap give me another interesting era to play in. Of course, it seems i either hate the realms or am an 13-year-old with ADD, so...

I didn't say everything about FR was logical. I said it was richly detailed. I also didn't say that people who like the changes are 13 year olds with ADD. The whole reason behind the spellplague and its implementation sounds, at least to me, like something a 13 year old would do to his hombrew world and think its cool at the time, but later look back on it and say "That is really stupid. What was I thinking?" The changes they want to implement could have been done much more sublty without destroying the setting and rebuilding it. Their job is to come up with creative ways to do something like this,a nd it seems they just got lazy and took the easy way out.

 

[Nebulous]

I'm running 4e Forgotten Realms Keep on the Shadowfell right now. I haven't used the setting as a base in a long, long time, but it was one of the first i ever bought, the little gray box. I generally use what i like and ignore what i don't like, so i'm sure i'll do the same with the 4e setting.

I like the idea of the Spell Plague. I'll use that.

I don't like dragonborn. They might not even exist in my campaign. Or they'll be enemies rather than playable characters.

I've only seen some of the 4e previews, but comparing those to the 3e FRCS, the layout of the book is not half as interesting. And contains less information i think.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've said this many times as well, but it falls on deaf ears. All of the major complaints against the Realms which were also used as justification for the destruction of the Realms can all be attributed to either bad DMing or fear that they have to know everything about hte Realms to play in it.

That doesn't explain why I do not want to DM Forgotten Realms.

I am pretty much fine playing in it - as long as the DM doesn't demand of me to know all those tid-bits. But as a DM, I feel overwhelmed by that setting and all those powerful NPCs running around that I have to keep busy (off-screen, of course) without invalidating the PCs actions, and also maintaining consistency with the setting to do any FR fans interest in the setting right.

Sure, I can do with Forgotten Realms whatever I want. Like, say, introduce a Spell Plague, kill off some gods, or have someone bring down that annoying Wall of the Faithless (or just retcon it away.) What would my FR players think? "WTF - first he's telling me he wants to run an FR campaign, and then he changes everything about it? And I don't even have a clue what he changed, it's not like he has written a source book explaining his homebrew setting..."

 

[Set]

That doesn't explain why I do not want to DM Forgotten Realms.

I am pretty much fine playing in it - as long as the DM doesn't demand of me to know all those tid-bits. But as a DM, I feel overwhelmed by that setting and all those powerful NPCs running around that I have to keep busy (off-screen, of course) without invalidating the PCs actions, and also maintaining consistency with the setting to do any FR fans interest in the setting right.

Sure, I can do with Forgotten Realms whatever I want. Like, say, introduce a Spell Plague, kill off some gods, or have someone bring down that annoying Wall of the Faithless (or just retcon it away.) What would my FR players think? "WTF - first he's telling me he wants to run an FR campaign, and then he changes everything about it? And I don't even have a clue what he changed, it's not like he has written a source book explaining his homebrew setting.

Unless your name is Ed Greenwood, you're gonna be running a homebrew Realms game anyway. And, for that matter, 90% of the current Realms is stuff that was strapped on by people not named Ed Greenwood (and while he's been gentleman enough to do little more than raise an eyebrow at most of it, it isn't all stuff that *he* would have chosen to add to his sandbox), so even Ed's games count as 'homebrews' these days...

Take what you want, ignore the rest. Elminster is an 8th level Diviner with some good information sources, and his houseboy Wong is just some foreign exchange student, not the Lost King of Whatever. The Chosen are just some fairly competent mages with really good PR. The Magister is the 'real Chosen' and has some gifts from the goddess of magic, but is *not* able to blow dracoliches out of the sky with SilverMoonFaerieSparklePonyFire. Halruans are snooty and superior about the magic so prevalent in their society, so much so that they keep their magically-inept commoners safely at home, rather than let the surrounding nations know that they aren't *all* magically 'ept. The gods are the same gods they've always been. Mystra has never died. The Time of Troubles never happened. You might think Lleira is dead, but only if that's what she *wants* you to think. Bane is alive and well. His son WhateverTheHeckHisLoserNameWas may or may not exist, but he sure doesn't have any worshippers. Cyric is a 2nd level Fighter / 6th level Rogue, and dating a 9th level Wizard girl named Midnight, after some werecat dude broke her heart. Drow don't use scimitars, although there is this one that wields dual short swords and has a figurine of wondrous power who's like 7th level or so and apparently killed some orcs once.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Take what you want, ignore the rest. Elminster is an 8th level Diviner with some good information sources, and his houseboy Wong is just some foreign exchange student, not the Lost King of Whatever. The Chosen are just some fairly competent mages with really good PR. The Magister is the 'real Chosen' and has some gifts from the goddess of magic, but is *not* able to blow dracoliches out of the sky with SilverMoonFaerieSparklePonyFire. Halruans are snooty and superior about the magic so prevalent in their society, so much so that they keep their magically-inept commoners safely at home, rather than let the surrounding nations know that they aren't *all* magically 'ept. The gods are the same gods they've always been. Mystra has never died. The Time of Troubles never happened. You might think Lleira is dead, but only if that's what she *wants* you to think. Bane is alive and well. His son WhateverTheHeckHisLoserNameWas may or may not exist, but he sure doesn't have any worshippers. Cyric is a 2nd level Fighter / 6th level Rogue, and dating a 9th level Wizard girl named Midnight, after some werecat dude broke her heart. Drow don't use scimitars, although there is this one that wields dual short swords and has a figurine of wondrous power who's like 7th level or so and apparently killed some orcs once.

All this stuff you listen here is already overhelming to me. I didn't know Elminster had some aid. I had no idea I could break canon when he suddenly would not have. Add all the other stuff to it - how should any FR fan feel like he's playing Forgotten Realms when I DM the game if I don't even know where I diverge from the game? Maybe he's working under totally wrong assumptions - this will collide eventually.

 

[Shazman]

All this stuff you listen here is already overhelming to me. I didn't know Elminster had some aid. I had no idea I could break canon when he suddenly would not have. Add all the other stuff to it - how should any FR fan feel like he's playing Forgotten Realms when I DM the game if I don't even know where I diverge from the game? Maybe he's working under totally wrong assumptions - this will collide eventually.

There is not a single FR module that I have seen, used ,or played in that required you to know any of that to either play in it or run it. Every single one has all the relevant info you need to run the adventure included in it just like any other generic or campaign specific adventure. If you think that having the PC's be stars when there are so many (actually not many considering FR's size) doesn't make sense, think of it this way. The high-level PC"s are not all powerful and all-knowing. The Realms are a big place and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, etc. can not be everywhere solving every problem at once. That's where the PC's come in. There are a decent number of high level NPC's in Greyhawk, and you don't here too many people complaing that they can't run a campaign in Greyhawk because of Moredenkainen and the Circle of Eight.