This comment was made by a Dragon Sorcerer in regards to a Light Cleric and Sorc1/Twilight Cleric. All PCs are level 8.
We only have 1 dedicated front line type in the party a paladin with a Ranged rogue rounding out the party.
To be fair I regard a Dragon Sorcerer as B tier Sorcerer and those two clerics as S tier.
Anyway the twilight cleric tends to wade into melee combat and the light cleric started as a ranged PC but has kind of copied the twilight clerics spells.
Both clerics are wisdom based and use spiritual weapon/guardians, guiding Bolt, toll the dead and inflict woubds.The MC one uses booming blade.
Not much is resistant to necrotic/radiant/force.
The fire Sorcerer is exactly that and has encounteed fire resistant critters and isn't good in melee.
One of the clerics players is also not the best skill wise the Dragon Sorcerer not so much.
Anyway ideas? I'm thinking of tweaking some of the encounters so the fire Sorcerer won't be so screwed but the big bad is still a fire giant. He can also cast haste or twin it.
Normally a you broke it you buy it type DM but getting soft in old age.
I have a pyro Wizard in my Eberron game, and I was working out a custom lvl 6 spell for him that allows him to turn all his fire damage into radiant damage while the spell lasts, and then the scribe Wizard came out lol.
I’d also say let the sorcerer use all the new UA dragon spells.
Also if the Sorcerer is b tier, why not give it a built in feature to recover proficiency+Cha sorcery points with a short rest, to give it more mileage, and a free Metamagic to change damage types or to reduce immunity to resistance (which would stack with the elemental feat)?
I have a pyro Wizard in my Eberron game, and I was working out a custom lvl 6 spell for him that allows him to turn all his fire damage into radiant damage while the spell lasts, and then the scribe Wizard came out lol.
I’d also say let the sorcerer use all the new UA dragon spells.
Also if the Sorcerer is b tier, why not give it a built in feature to recover proficiency+Cha sorcery points with a short rest, to give it more mileage, and a free Metamagic to change damage types or to reduce immunity to resistance (which would stack with the elemental feat)?
Cha bonus to sorcery points recovered seems ok. But on a short rest cooldown?
The sorcerer is not b tier. You just need to help new players a bit.
While it seems cool to only have fire spells, that choice seems not so good if you encounter resistant or immune enemies often.
The dragon sorcerer has mediocre AC and hp. By no means good, but okish. You still should play from behind.
I think you are underestimating the utility of such a debuff. If you are a sorcerer with heightened spell and you want to be sure your single slot level X spell sticks, this spell is exactly what you want: first, quickened mind sliver for -d4 on your next spell and if it works, cast your heightened spell. If you only have one chance, you better prepare it well.
If you are looking for damage, don't look at wizard cantrips.
Cha bonus to sorcery points recovered seems ok. But on a short rest cooldown?
The sorcerer is not b tier. You just need to help new players a bit.
While it seems cool to only have fire spells, that choice seems not so good if you encounter resistant or immune enemies often.
The dragon sorcerer has mediocre AC and hp. By no means good, but okish. You still should play from behind.
I think you are underestimating the utility of such a debuff. If you are a sorcerer with heightened spell and you want to be sure your single slot level X spell sticks, this spell is exactly what you want: first, quickened mind sliver for -d4 on your next spell and if it works, cast your heightened spell. If you only have one chance, you better prepare it well.
If you are looking for damage, don't look at wizard cantrips.
No I'm not. I don't believe that maximize exists in 5e but exist or not lets say it does. for the sake of argument lets go with a maximized disintegrate spell 10d6+40 maximized to 60+40=100 or even something really beefy like the 9th level spell meteor swarm dealing 20d8 bludgeoning, again lets maximize it to 8x20=160 that sounds really impressive, but when you look at the math it's anything but given that from level 17-20 a caster will have one level nine spell slot per long rest along with one 6th level spell slot from 10-18 where that jumps to two at 19-20.
In this example where you are defending mind sliver as an underestimated debuff the sorcerer used two rounds with one dealing very poor damage. Lets be generous & say the sorcerer was level 17+ for 4d6=14 mind sliver damage. That brings the per round to 114/2=57 for that maximized disintegrate & 174/2=87 with a maximized meteor swarm after setup. Don't forget that it doesn't look like maximize even exists in 5e other than one of the wildmagic surge possibilities. with the easy maximized damage here to avoid any variance using a metamagic that might not even exist in 5e lets see what has an average at or around 57/round to compare
A level11 fighter with GWM a +0 greataxe & a maybe behind the curve 14 16 or 18 strength dealing completely average damage
But GWM is a whole feat investment while the theoretical maximize is no doubt a free every round participation trophy level investment so lets compare a longsword & shield fighter to that level 17mind sliver+maximized disintegrate.
Look at that the fighter needs 18 strength & a +1 weapon or 20 strength for their average damage to hit that theoretical mind sliver+maximized disintegrate when they pop action surge....
Of course that goes out the window if one or more of those six attacks is a crit, but lets pretend there are no crits & instead look at how the fighter recovers action surge & how the sorcerer recovers that one level 6 slot.
You might have other ideas I'm not considering but I can't seem to find any way for the sorcerer to recover that one level 6 spell slot. Given that maximize seems to only come from wildmagic surge rolls of 33-34 it's safe to say that it's going to be a tiny bit less frequent than action surge even if the sorcerer is rolling on the surge table every round.
Well that was a poor showing pitting a level 17 sorcerer against a level 11 fighter who had to step up from starting gear & feat to a +1 longsword& shield with 18 strength. I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing the case your trying to make getting backed up there so feel like moving on to the maximized 9th level meteor swarm. As noted above mindsliver+maximized meteor swarm is 174 damage across two rounds or an average of 87/round.
Oh that's right greataxe & gwm with 18-20 strength tops out at 82 & 86 using a +0 greataxe as included above. Since the sorcerer won't even get 9th level slot until 17 it's a reasonable comparison to make using a fighter 3 levels higher instead of a fighter six levels lower....
Well look at that, it takes a level 5 fighter with GWM 16 strength & action surge using a +2 greataxe to get there, you can of course drop that to +1 & +0 with 18 & 20 strength respectively
Meteor swarm is a 40 foot radius sphere so we can use dmg249 to see that wotc has told us that meteor swarm using the 40/5 should be damaging 8 targets per cast. That raises two very critical questions
You were saying that I was underestimating mindsliver. Out of those eight targets that may or may not exist in a fight & may or may not be within 40ft of each other why is it that only one of them critically needs that -1d4 to save as you note & if that's something where more than one of those eight hypothetical targets needs it then exactly what part was I underestimating?... Lets give it the benefit of the doubt & say that those 8 targets are the bbeg plus some mooks. Oh wait...
Good thing the sorcerer debuffed that save by the 1d4 so the bbeg targeted by mindsliver could choose to suceed instead. This was with a cr13 vampire but that legendary resist only gets more & more common the higher you go.
Wotc expects 6-8 encounters & two short rests per long. Do you think that the fighter gets 4-8 rounds of average damage in depending on if they pop action surge or not?... I think they probably do
But what about if the fighter has no magic weapons?
Wait a minute, it looks very much like wotc designed a blaster sorcerer using a maximized high level spell should compare to a fighter dealing half damage because of a situation they advice against & take pains to prevent in at least three different publications...
Really not seeing the case your making for me underestimating the value. Mindsliver is single target not AOE so it's not making up the value with aoe nukes aoe debuffs & aoe control spells. Given the damage disparity even top shelf single target debuffs seem dubious in their ability to make up the chasm needed for -1d4 to be merely underestimated in value
Sorcerer is one of the most unforgiving classes for an inexperienced player. And the fact that the more experienced players chose optimized options makes it worse in terms of party balance.
You might want to let the sorcerer change out some of their spells or metamagics. As others have mentioned, Transumted Spell from Tasha's will allow the sorcerer to use different energy types. If you are feeling really generous, you could give the sorcerer an item which gives them access to Transumted Spell and let them keep their other metamagics. Or perhaps there is some other arcane-only item the party could come across. A wand of lightning bolts?
If this player is inexperienced I wonder what their spell selection is. They may have fallen into the trap of taking too many fire spells. If I was an 8th level sorcerer one of my 4th level spells would be either polymorph or greater invisibility. Both of which would be powerful assets for the party that no one else can do. Haste is good but I think those two are better.
Sorcerer is one of the most unforgiving classes for an inexperienced player. And the fact that the more experienced players chose optimized options makes it worse in terms of party balance.
You might want to let the sorcerer change out some of their spells or metamagics. As others have mentioned, Transumted Spell from Tasha's will allow the sorcerer to use different energy types. If you are feeling really generous, you could give the sorcerer an item which gives them access to Transumted Spell and let them keep their other metamagics. Or perhaps there is some other arcane-only item the party could come across. A wand of lightning bolts?
If this player is inexperienced I wonder what their spell selection is. They may have fallen into the trap of taking too many fire spells. If I was an 8th level sorcerer one of my 4th level spells would be either polymorph or greater invisibility. Both of which would be powerful assets for the party that no one else can do. Haste is good but I think those two are better.
I have a fire draconic sorcerer take ray of frost just as a back up, he needed it during the final battle of the last session so I think he was happy to have taken it.
No I'm not. I don't believe that maximize exists in 5e but exist or not lets say it does. for the sake of argument lets go with a maximized disintegrate spell 10d6+40 maximized to 60+40=100 or even something really beefy like the 9th level spell meteor swarm dealing 20d8 bludgeoning, again lets maximize it to 8x20=160 that sounds really impressive, but when you look at the math it's anything but given that from level 17-20 a caster will have one level nine spell slot per long rest along with one 6th level spell slot from 10-18 where that jumps to two at 19-20.
In this example where you are defending mind sliver as an underestimated debuff the sorcerer used two rounds with one dealing very poor damage. Lets be generous & say the sorcerer was level 17+ for 4d6=14 mind sliver damage. That brings the per round to 114/2=57 for that maximized disintegrate & 174/2=87 with a maximized meteor swarm after setup. Don't forget that it doesn't look like maximize even exists in 5e other than one of the wildmagic surge possibilities. with the easy maximized damage here to avoid any variance using a metamagic that might not even exist in 5e lets see what has an average at or around 57/round to compare
A level11 fighter with GWM a +0 greataxe & a maybe behind the curve 14 16 or 18 strength dealing completely average damage View attachment 135766
But GWM is a whole feat investment while the theoretical maximize is no doubt a free every round participation trophy level investment so lets compare a longsword & shield fighter to that level 17mind sliver+maximized disintegrate. View attachment 135761
Look at that the fighter needs 18 strength & a +1 weapon or 20 strength for their average damage to hit that theoretical mind sliver+maximized disintegrate when they pop action surge....
Of course that goes out the window if one or more of those six attacks is a crit, but lets pretend there are no crits & instead look at how the fighter recovers action surge & how the sorcerer recovers that one level 6 slot. View attachment 135763
You might have other ideas I'm not considering but I can't seem to find any way for the sorcerer to recover that one level 6 spell slot. Given that maximize seems to only come from wildmagic surge rolls of 33-34 it's safe to say that it's going to be a tiny bit less frequent than action surge even if the sorcerer is rolling on the surge table every round.
Well that was a poor showing pitting a level 17 sorcerer against a level 11 fighter who had to step up from starting gear & feat to a +1 longsword& shield with 18 strength. I don't know about you, but I'm not seeing the case your trying to make getting backed up there so feel like moving on to the maximized 9th level meteor swarm. As noted above mindsliver+maximized meteor swarm is 174 damage across two rounds or an average of 87/round.
Oh that's right greataxe & gwm with 18-20 strength tops out at 82 & 86 using a +0 greataxe as included above. Since the sorcerer won't even get 9th level slot until 17 it's a reasonable comparison to make using a fighter 3 levels higher instead of a fighter six levels lower....
Well look at that, it takes a level 5 fighter with GWM 16 strength & action surge using a +2 greataxe to get there, you can of course drop that to +1 & +0 with 18 & 20 strength respectively
Meteor swarm is a 40 foot radius sphere so we can use dmg249 to see that wotc has told us that meteor swarm using the 40/5 should be damaging 8 targets per cast. That raises two very critical questions
You were saying that I was underestimating mindsliver. Out of those eight targets that may or may not exist in a fight & may or may not be within 40ft of each other why is it that only one of them critically needs that -1d4 to save as you note & if that's something where more than one of those eight hypothetical targets needs it then exactly what part was I underestimating?... Lets give it the benefit of the doubt & say that those 8 targets are the bbeg plus some mooks. Oh wait... View attachment 135768 Good thing the sorcerer debuffed that save by the 1d4 so the bbeg targeted by mindsliver could choose to suceed instead. This was with a cr13 vampire but that legendary resist only gets more & more common the higher you go.
Wotc expects 6-8 encounters & two short rests per long. Do you think that the fighter gets 4-8 rounds of average damage in depending on if they pop action surge or not?... I think they probably do
But what about if the fighter has no magic weapons?
Wait a minute, it looks very much like wotc designed a blaster sorcerer using a maximized high level spell should compare to a fighter dealing half damage because of a situation they advice against & take pains to prevent in at least three different publications...
Really not seeing the case your making for me underestimating the value. Mindsliver is single target not AOE so it's not making up the value with aoe nukes aoe debuffs & aoe control spells. Given the damage disparity even top shelf single target debuffs seem dubious in their ability to make up the chasm needed for -1d4 to be merely underestimated in value
Just the fact that you even assumed you will follow up with anotger damage spell shows that you don't understand the spell.
But as I was rightly told: you can't quicken a cantrip and then also cast a spell. So you have 1 round delay between those spells which diminishes the use a for yourself a bit.
Yo can of course use mind sliver first and then quicken your let's say banishment spell after, which might make sense if you don't have access to heightened spell.
As normally played, a fire sorcerer and light cleric would step on each others toes a little bit.
A wand of lighting bolts is the simple solution.
But its funny, the light cleric can play the fire sorcerer and still do all the cleric stuff. While the fire sorcerer can pretty much just be the fire sorcerer.
As normally played, a fire sorcerer and light cleric would step on each others toes a little bit.
A wand of lighting bolts is the simple solution.
But its funny, the light cleric can play the fire sorcerer and still do all the cleric stuff. While the fire sorcerer can pretty much just be the fire sorcerer.
The player has noticed in previous games (he played a death cleric) that the cleric is great at most things including skills via guidance and some domains.
And potent cantrip is also better than the Sorcerer version.
The player has noticed in previous games (he played a death cleric) that the cleric is great at most things including skills via guidance and some domains.
And potent cantrip is also better than the Sorcerer version.
I'd dispute that the cleric's potent cantrip is better. The draconic sorcerer is gaining g that damage bonus across a number of spell levels for a specific element. The cleric is able to affect different elements but they need to be a cantrip. Adding your charisma bonus to a fireball spell, for instance, is better than upcasting it 1 level and almost as good as upcasting 2 levels. They're both good, but I feel have a different niche. If anything, the evokers ability to add their intelligence bonus to any evocation spell is the superior option, probably why it is level 10.
I'd dispute that the cleric's potent cantrip is better. The draconic sorcerer is gaining g that damage bonus across a number of spell levels for a specific element. The cleric is able to affect different elements but they need to be a cantrip. Adding your charisma bonus to a fireball spell, for instance, is better than upcasting it 1 level and almost as good as upcasting 2 levels. They're both good, but I feel have a different niche. If anything, the evokers ability to add their intelligence bonus to any evocation spell is the superior option, probably why it is level 10.
I'd dispute that the cleric's potent cantrip is better. The draconic sorcerer is gaining g that damage bonus across a number of spell levels for a specific element. The cleric is able to affect different elements but they need to be a cantrip. Adding your charisma bonus to a fireball spell, for instance, is better than upcasting it 1 level and almost as good as upcasting 2 levels. They're both good, but I feel have a different niche. If anything, the evokers ability to add their intelligence bonus to any evocation spell is the superior option, probably why it is level 10.
I think the value AOEs like fireball are generally overstated. Sure it will occasionally be very impressive if you can toss it on a tightly clustered band of mooks, but remember how wide the damage disparity is & don't forget that simply angling for different PCs, starting out spread around, being arranged in a defensive line, or any number of other positioning including being spread over multiple smaller encounters or getting replaced with fewer but tougher opponents will drastically ratchet down those numbers. When that happens does it really matter that merlin used a limited resource spell slot to deal twoish rounds of bob fighter Og barbarian or lancelot paladin's at will damage to 2-3 mooks?
I think the value AOEs like fireball are generally overstated. Sure it will occasionally be very impressive if you can toss it on a tightly clustered band of mooks, but remember how wide the damage disparity is & don't forget that simply angling for different PCs, starting out spread around, being arranged in a defensive line, or any number of other positioning including being spread over multiple smaller encounters or getting replaced with fewer but tougher opponents will drastically ratchet down those numbers. When that happens does it really matter that merlin used a limited resource spell slot to deal twoish rounds of bob fighter Og barbarian or lancelot paladin's at will damage to 2-3 mooks?
I think the value AOEs like fireball are generally overstated. Sure it will occasionally be very impressive if you can toss it on a tightly clustered band of mooks, but remember how wide the damage disparity is & don't forget that simply angling for different PCs, starting out spread around, being arranged in a defensive line, or any number of other positioning including being spread over multiple smaller encounters or getting replaced with fewer but tougher opponents will drastically ratchet down those numbers. When that happens does it really matter that merlin used a limited resource spell slot to deal twoish rounds of bob fighter Og barbarian or lancelot paladin's at will damage to 2-3 mooks?
Considering that twoish rounds of damage can mean that the rest of the party has an easier time of mopping up, I think that's an effective use of a resource. I'm not sure how others build encounters but I'll often have mixed monsters, an ogre leading a squad of orcs. That fireball will likely kill the orcs and deal a decent amount of damage to the ogre. Of course, it might be that there is a better spell for the situation, that's fine, fireball doesn't need to be the answer to every problem.
It doesn’t help yet, but next level (at 9th) the sorcerer can pick up Animate Objects. That spell is a dramatic change in overall combat power for any class that can cast it, when used on ten tiny objects (a bag of daggers works great). A sorcerer can cast it quite a few times per day by converting lower-level slots to additional 5th-level slots via sorcery points.
Polymorph (turn allies into giant apes and t-rexes) and Counterspell are other significant spells the sorcerer has access to that the clerics don’t. Plus things like twinned Haste that you already mentioned.
There’s also the Transmuted Spell metamagic from Tasha’s that would let the sorcerer convert fireballs to acid-balls or other elements that are uncommonly resisted.
Sorcerers do feel like they’re in a tough spot, and picking blaster spells (except fireball) can feel underwhelming. 5e is generally good at avoiding “trap” choices when building a character, but sorcerer is probably closest because it’s so dependent on spell choice, and picking the right spells takes experience.
There are some great spells that last all combat (web, haste, polymorph, greater invis, animate objects), and those plus fireballs and cantrips can add up to a pretty good package. Outside of combat... the sorcerer spell list is decent, but you have so few spells known that it’s hard to have interesting options available for a variety of situations. The Magical Guidance feature from Tasha’s can help sorcerers somewhat with skills.
