D&D 5E How on earth is this balanced?! Twilight cleric, more in-play evidence

[Zardnaar]

It doesn't have to be a consistent counter since that would just be picking on the cleric because the DM doesn't like one of their abilities, it just has to be an option from time to time. Let the twilight cleric shine in some combats but in others, there will be counters. Every ability has some sort of counter which should be brought out from time to time.

They only real counter is target the cleric deliberately (indicates there's a problem) or use lots of counter spells and dispel magic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, but aren’t these applicable to most clerics? Fly in darkness or dim light is good… particularly in a drow campaign. But its hardly outrageous… particularly in a campaign that doesn’t have a lot of dim light.

The weakness most clerics have is at range. It's not that big of a disadvantage compared to anyone melee based in heavy armor.

Fly plus the temporary hit points put the cleric over the top.

Think she's a sorcerer/cleric the dip was for divine soul but I said no to that combo.

 

[cbwjm]

They only real counter is target the cleric deliberately (indicates there's a problem) or use lots of counter spells and dispel magic.

Yeah, but targetting a character in general is how you counter them. How do you stop class X from using ability Y? You target them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, but targetting a character in general is how you counter them. How do you stop class X from using ability Y? You target them.

Generally you don't needs to target specific characters.

That was a suggested counter in 3.5 as well.

It's also not fun for the player getting targeted or shut down.

Maybe if they're a powergamer.

Twilight cleric looks good even to a casual I suspect. Then you see it in action and yeah problem.

 

[Mort]

Oo, yeah, glamour bards drive me up the wall too! Let's talk about them!


... Oh.

That's a good point of comparison.

Glamour bard can grant temp HP too. let's see how they compare:

3rd level:

Glamour bard is granting 5 Temp HP to 3-4 people (within 60 ft) at the cost of 1 bardic inspiration.

Twilight cleric is granting 4-9 HP every round (sure they don't stack, but they do replenish) to anyone he wants within 30ft at the cost of a channel divinity.

I'd say the twilight cleric's version is better - but he can do it a bit less (but it replenishes on a short rest so not that much less at this level).

14th level

Glamout bard is granting 14 Temp HP to 5 people (within 60 ft) at the cost of 1 bardic inspiration

Twilight cleric is granting 15-21 HP every round to anyone he wants within 30ft at the cost of a channel divinity.

Again Bard can do it more often (but it doesn't replenish so she has to) but still clear win for the cleric.

Comparing it side by side really shows how MUCH better the twilight cleric's version is.

 

[Ancalagon]

Oo, yeah, glamour bards drive me up the wall too! Let's talk about them!


... Oh.

I haven't really looked at that one. I will do so ... with trepidation.

 

[jayoungr]

That's a good point of comparison.

Glamour bard can grant temp HP too. let's see how they compare:

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

 

[Mort]

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

But the bards Temp HP do not replenish she has to use the ability again to replenish it, the cleric's replenish every round for a full minute.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

Yes, the movement without provoking attacks of opportunity is nice but the Twilight cleric gets a host of other abilities too - haven't even touched on those.

Edit: One thing I did not consider. The Glamour Bard's ability is a bonus action. That IS actually a significant improvement and often overlooked.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Your comparison is missing two things, though:

1. After 5th level, the glamour bard regains all bardic inspiration points on a short rest.

2. Mantle of Majesty doesn't just grant temporary HP--it also allows all the recipients to move their speed without provoking opportunity attacks, which makes a HUGE difference to the battlefield.

3: Mantle of Majesty is a bonus action.

4: The Bard is a better base class.

 

[Undrave]

Also, the DM being able to solve an issue, does not eliminate that issue. The DM shouldn't have to FULLY understand every ability to design a proper adventure. And further, if the DM is designing adventures /encounters to be a challenge in spite of one specific ability - yeah that's a problem.

Last Saturday we finished up a campaign with a twilight cleric. The party got to level 10. Yeah, it's pretty OP. I had to alter many encounters so they wouldn't be cake walks. Every time I managed to hit them, they just got more temp HP the next round. It was crazy.

the game doesn't need to be balanced on a razor's edge. It just need to be balanced enough that a DM can bring ANY adventure to ANY party and have a fun time. When you need to 'take into account' someone's abilities when designing your adventures and encounters, then it becomes a problem.

So the game I ran with a twilight cleric? There was also a shepherd druid in the party, who played as a "summoner". The "meatwall" was insane.

I can imagine. I got bored of MY Shepherd Druid because Conjure Animals was just busted and too good.