D&D (2024) How should the Swordmage be implemented in 1DnD?

[CreamCloud0]

Big problem there. 5e got rid of monsters commonly having elemental/physical resist and vulnerability in a way that was meaningful to damage type choices. All you need now is "not nonmagical bludgeon piercing or slashing"

the point isn't the specific types of elemental damage being done or that it's being paired with weapon damage, but the fact the elemental magic is supplementing the effectiveness of the attack with extra effects, in the same way spells like zephyr strike and lightning arrow work, granting you additional opportunity-attack-immune movement from the power of wind, or lightning surging out from the arget to strike everyone around them.

being able to do things like:
repeating the damage they took from the weapon at the start of the foe's turn from the fire ingniting them
summoning a tidal wave cone of water to push foes away after you strike them
acid from your blow eating away at their defenses to reduce their AC
freezing the ground around the target you hit to surround them with difficult terrain

 

[tetrasodium]

the point isn't the specific types of elemental damage being done or that it's being paired with weapon damage, but the fact the elemental magic is supplementing the effectiveness of the attack with extra effects, in the same way spells like zephyr strike and lightning arrow work, granting you additional opportunity-attack-immune movement from the power of wind, or lightning surging out from the arget to strike everyone around them.

being able to do things like:
repeating the damage they took from the weapon at the start of the foe's turn from the fire ingniting them
summoning a tidal wave cone of water to push foes away after you strike them
acid from your blow eating away at their defenses to reduce their AC
freezing the ground around the target you hit to surround them with difficult terrain

No that's still not at all reasonable.... If the "extra effects" are so obviously abjuration and enchantment it's only asking for problems to put a thin veneer of evocation or conjuration on it to pretend otherwise. Take the earlier example abilities someone posted to start this:
Attack + slowing cold.
Attack + stunning lightning.
Attack + acid AC penalty.
Attack + pushing thunder
Attack + Blinding radiant
Attack + extra fire damage

• GM:it's immune to stun though soo... > Player: But it's lightning causing its muscles to lock up, my attack Should bypass that because it's so concentrated
• GM: it's immune to lightning sooo... >Player:but it's a stun, the lightning isn't doing damage so it shouldn't stop the stun
• GM: No it ignore that slow because it's an ice elemental. I dunno why you expected otherwise> player: nut but all that extra ice should do something later player:I want to pour water on the [object] and use my ice strike to make it expand to break it from the inside and outside>skeptical gm:is that evocation or conjuration what's the exact wording?... "Neither and Slowing cold?" Yea you've slowed the [object](bet you thought this was a duplicate scenario)
• GM:well the beholder is facing you so... >Player:but I'm not using the magic section to do this, it should totally be exempt like the fluff that Crawford (?) Mentioned way back as part of why a multiton dragon can fly like that with those physics defying wing flaps.
• GM: it's an adamantine door you really need the key or something because it's immune to nonmagic attacks>player: but my pushing thunder is magic
  

Every one of those examples is a mess because it's trying to pretend that an attack is spellcasting but not really and that the resulting spell is a multi/cross school effect. 4e could handle this kind of thing because everything was #weapon damage and ADEU, 5e lacks those kinds of things and this suggestion just throws the job of finishing the class abilities at the GM to handle on the fly while pretending otherwise.

 

[Corinnguard]

the point isn't the specific types of elemental damage being done or that it's being paired with weapon damage, but the fact the elemental magic is supplementing the effectiveness of the attack with extra effects, in the same way spells like zephyr strike and lightning arrow work, granting you additional opportunity-attack-immune movement from the power of wind, or lightning surging out from the arget to strike everyone around them.

being able to do things like:
repeating the damage they took from the weapon at the start of the foe's turn from the fire ingniting them
summoning a tidal wave cone of water to push foes away after you strike them
acid from your blow eating away at their defenses to reduce their AC
freezing the ground around the target you hit to surround them with difficult terrain

This sounds like a multiclass combo to me. The Swordmage and Purple Martin Games' Elementalist class.

 

[mellored]

No that's still not at all reasonable.... If the "extra effects" are so obviously abjuration and enchantment it's only asking for problems to put a thin veneer of evocation or conjuration on it to pretend otherwise. Take the earlier example abilities someone posted to start this:
Attack + slowing cold.
Attack + stunning lightning.
Attack + acid AC penalty.
Attack + pushing thunder
Attack + Blinding radiant
Attack + extra fire damage


Every one of those examples is a mess because it's trying to pretend that an attack is spellcasting but not really and that the resulting spell is a multi/cross school effect. 4e could handle this kind of thing because everything was #weapon damage and ADEU, 5e lacks those kinds of things and this suggestion just throws the job of finishing the class abilities at the GM to handle on the fly while pretending otherwise.

Ummm...

Blinding Smite, Scorching Smite, Ensnareing Shot, Thunderous Smite already exsist as Evocation spells.

No idea why expanding that to include Slowing Frost Strike or Armor Eating Strike wouldn't work.*

And many spells cross the school lines. Is Ice Storm an Evocation or Conjuration? Cure Wounds has been different in each edition.

Not that anyone will care much about the school. It doesn't affect anything.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I expect the "resistance to nonmagical" stuff will go away. And hopefully make use of more damage types.

But even without it, you can have an "elemental" effect.

Attack + slowing cold.
Attack + stunning lightning.
Attack + acid AC penalty.
Attack + pushing thunder
Attack + Blinding radiant
Attack + extra fire damage

Though half of those are already smite spells.

ngl, eldritch knight with the smite spells is already more swordmagy than anything WotC offers.

Shame there is no cold, lightning, or acid smites.

 

[FrogReaver]

Both editions are
Proficiency bonus + stat + magic weapon bonus.

The difference is
4e Proficiency went to +15, stat to +10, and item to +5.
5e Proficiency went to +6, stat to +5, and item to +3.

bounded accuracy isn’t just about proficiency bonus and stat bonus. It’s also about all the fiddly bonuses from buffs and class abilities.

 

[tetrasodium]

Ummm...

Blinding Smite,

evocation can create a bright light. a bright light can blind someone, more importantly it's not trying to dress up needless elemental trappings in it to complicate adjudication.

Scorching Smite,

did you mean the damage smite named searing smite? it deals fire damage.

Ensnareing Shot, Thunderous Smite already exsist as Evocation spells.

did you mean the conjuration spell ensnaring strike? thunderous smite is evoc but it's a 5e exclusive so it's not surprising & could be worse, at least sound/thunder can suddenly move things that could knock things down

No idea why expanding that to include Slowing Frost Strike or Armor Eating Strike wouldn't work.*

Because cold slows cold blooded creatures due to their biology, it's not a universal truism the GM should be left to adjudicate. Armor eating strike? Anything that is acidic enough to "eat" armor can pretty much delete flesh like piranha solution & Chlorine Trifluoride.

And many spells cross the school lines. Is Ice Storm an Evocation or Conjuration? Cure Wounds has been different in each edition.

The trouble is the extreme depths of doing it while tossing them on a martial "mage"

Not that anyone will care much about the school. It doesn't affect anything.

The cherry on top school was not the only problem, a martial with every single top tier control & a notable array of debuffs who is also dressed up as a "mage" doing it is the problem.


Let me guess, that list you posted in 157 should be the same arrangement of at wills encounter powers & daily powers as they were in 4e too?

 

[mellored]

bounded accuracy isn’t just about proficiency bonus and stat bonus. It’s also about all the fiddly bonuses from buffs and class abilities.

Which is why I changed it to disadvantage.
But you where right in that made it a bit strong.

And I think the teleport part is the interesting bit anyways. So just do that.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

ngl, eldritch knight with the smite spells is already more swordmagy than anything WotC offers.

Shame there is no cold, lightning, or acid smites.

The limited options for Smite spells was one of the first things I tried to rectify with homebrew and 3pp in regards to the disparity of spell types.

I also tend to allow Bladesingers, Hexblades, Eldritch Knights, Rangers and Battlesmith Artificers to gain access to certain smite spells that fit their theme. I know some people don’t like it when other classes get access to something unique to a single class, but despite these spells having Smite in the name, they mechanically fit the gish theme very well in my opinion.

 

[Corinnguard]

ngl, eldritch knight with the smite spells is already more swordmagy than anything WotC offers.

Shame there is no cold, lightning, or acid smites.

No official cold, lightning, and acid smites. There might be homebrewed versions on D&D Beyond.