D&D (2024) How to balance the shield spell?

[S'mon]

Re Paladins & Shield, my house rule is only one spellcaster class per multiclass PC. I did it because of Sorcadin shenanigans, but reading about this makes me doubly glad!

 

[Scott Christian]

OK but we were talking about Paladins dipping to get Shield. So, nice job shifting the goalposts.

P.S. I don't think Wizards should have access to 18+ AC against multiple attacks in the first place without investing in Lightly and Moderately Armored feats. It just makes them too good at everything, which is a problem with 5e to begin with.

I didn't shift the goalpost. The thread is talking about the spell being overpowered. About it breaking the game's combat mechanics. I think if you read this thread more closely, you will see this discussion.

But again, I am asking how it makes them "too good at everything." So the wizard has an 18 AC (or it could be a 17) for less than one round. Please give me an example of an adventuring day where this breaks the game's combat mechanics. Is it good? Yes. Is it useful? Yes. Is it powerful? A bit. Does it break the game? No. If it does, please give me examples.

As for the paladin, it is the same thing. So you lose an entire level of paladinhood in order to gain (in most cases) an AC of around 22-25. For our example, we'll say you take it at fourth level. So you lose an extra attack, you postpone your aura, and you give up extra hit points to get a much better AC for less than four rounds a day. It does nothing to help spell saves. It does nothing to stop foes from changing targets. It does nothing to help your allies. It just makes you really hard to hit for a very limited amount of time. Again, in this example, I really do not see it as breaking the game's combat mechanics.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I didn't shift the goalpost. The thread is talking about the spell being overpowered. About it breaking the game's combat mechanics. I think if you read this thread more closely, you will see this discussion.

But again, I am asking how it makes them "too good at everything." So the wizard has an 18 AC (or it could be a 17) for less than one round. Please give me an example of an adventuring day where this breaks the game's combat mechanics. Is it good? Yes. Is it useful? Yes. Is it powerful? A bit. Does it break the game? No. If it does, please give me examples.

It breaks the game because it gives the Wizard AC against multiple attacks that should be reserved for martial characters. It's just another example of casters ruling over martials and doing martial things better than martials do.

Also by level 4, a Variant Human or Custom Lineage Wizard has Lightly and Moderately Armored feats, getting a permanent AC of 19 from that (half plate + physical shield + DEX), then casting Shield on top of that for 24 AC whenever it wants. B-R-O-K-E-N.

As for the paladin, it is the same thing. So you lose an entire level of paladinhood in order to gain (in most cases) an AC of around 22-25. For our example, we'll say you take it at fourth level. So you lose an extra attack, you postpone your aura, and you give up extra hit points to get a much better AC for less than four rounds a day. It does nothing to help spell saves. It does nothing to stop foes from changing targets. It does nothing to help your allies. It just makes you really hard to hit for a very limited amount of time. Again, in this example, I really do not see it as breaking the game's combat mechanics.

The Paladin is getting AC 26 with Shield. Simple math: 18 (plate) + 2 (physical shield) + 1 (Defense) + 5 (Shield spell).

That's broken. Period.

 

[Clint_L]

IF you crit in the first place, and preferably within the first two rounds of combat where it would actually make a meaningful difference.

Crits only happen 5% of the time. Getting hit within the AC range where Shield will make a difference happens a lot more often than that.

Yes, I am quite aware of how often critical hits happen, and took that into account. Unlike you, I am not arguing about hypotheticals. Do you care to address the substance of my claim, that paladins using smite on criticals has impacted far more games than paladins using shield spell? Or is it such an obvious truth that all you had left was mentioning some well known facts about how criticals and shield spell work?

It doesn’t break the game. It’s OP at low levels, but I have run many hundreds of games and shield spell did not break them. Period.

 

[Valetudo]

A pally using his slots for shield is a pally not using that slot to smite. Pallys run out of slots very fast when they smite, there's no guarantee they have enough slots to use on shield. It's a strong spell, but there are strong spells for most levels. Shield,pass without trace,spirit guardian, and so on. I'm cool with it. Most players dont obsess over this like people on these boards. Im just happy when my player pays enough attention to use the shield spell.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Yes, I am quite aware of how often critical hits happen, and took that into account. Unlike you, I am not arguing about hypotheticals.

lolwut? You're relying on something that happens 5% of the time, and within a specified time frame.

Shield OTOH affects 25% of all attack rolls against you. That's a much higher frequency of meaningful effect.

It's not hypothetical. It's pure math. You're the one arguing hypotheticals here.

Do you care to address the substance of my claim, that paladins using smite on criticals has impacted far more games than paladins using shield spell?

Your claim is false, as proven above. Mathematically so.

Or is it such an obvious truth that all you had left was mentioning some well known facts about how criticals and shield spell work?

It doesn’t break the game. It’s OP at low levels, but I have run many hundreds of games and shield spell did not break them. Period.

Shield has broken every game I've ever played in. See, I can cite anecdotal evidence, too.

 

[Gladius Legis]

A pally using his slots for shield is a pally not using that slot to smite. Pallys run out of slots very fast when they smite, there's no guarantee they have enough slots to use on shield. It's a strong spell, but there are strong spells for most levels. Shield,pass without trace,spirit guardian, and so on. I'm cool with it. Most players dont obsess over this like people on these boards. Im just happy when my player pays enough attention to use the shield spell.

If the Paladin takes Shield, it's not going to smite with 1st-level slots.

 

[Valetudo]

If the Paladin takes Shield, it's not going to smite with 1st-level slots.

That's my point. The pally can use more than one smite a round for now and that's up to 4 smiles he wont have. That will encourage him to hoard his other sites for big fights. Is it a straight equal exchange, no. But I'm fine with it. That pally had to trade something to get that spell whether it's a feat or a level dip.

 

[the Jester]

Shield OTOH affects 25% of all attack rolls against you. That's a much higher frequency of meaningful effect.

I'm pretty sure you're overestimating here.

First, at maximum efficiency, it can affect 25% of all attack rolls against you- but that assumes that you know whether a hit is good enough to hit even with that +5 bonus from shield. That's certainly not a given; while I know some groups do play where the dm gives that kind of info, others don't. (3/4 of the games I play in don't.)

Second, you're assuming that you will have enough spell slots to cast shield every round if you get hit. That's certainly not a given at low levels, and even at higher levels, you have to start burning higher level slots pretty quickly. That eats up your resources fast. If you have enough encounters, or encounters that last long enough- heck, it could be a single drawn out cat and mouse encounter- you'll run dry.

 

[S'mon]

If the Paladin takes Shield, it's not going to smite with 1st-level slots.

Similarly, my son's Eldritch Knight never ever takes Opportunity Attacks, never uses his Reaction, precisely so that he always has Shield available. Paladin really seems one of the weaker classes to multiclass to get Shield, given how valuable their spell slots are. Eldritch Knight Bladesinger Wizard & Sword Bard seem like obvious major beneficiaries, no multiclassing needed.