How to kill a blue dragon?

[frankthedm]

All players need to carry ranged weapons and should have this drilled into them repeatedly. However, higher level Solos are not a good tool for this. Level appropriate solos already have defences rigged so that players are challeged to even hit them in the first place. Using higher level solos in this sort of situation do make for bad encounters because even those with the forthought to have ranged weapons, still won't have even a modest chance of hitting.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

I'm not sure precisely what you are looking for as an answer - in general, some groups might be built with heavy ranged firepower and able to deal with the creature, while others won't be. In that case, they should seek cover to lure it lower - if there is no cover, and the DM goes out of his way to prevent creative solutions (such as letting it bite free of ropes with a minor action), then he is clearly just a bad DM, and out to kill the party.

But if a party does end up in an open field and has to fight him, then they have some options. Assume you only have one or two people suited to the fight - a ranger, maybe a wizard with long range spells. Others can still have some options. A rogue can use a crossbow at long range, or a longbow without proficiency (or with it, if elven). Any Str-based characters, such as Fighters and Warlords, and possibly Paladins and Clerics, can use Javelins at long range. Even a warlock can carry around a longbow and shoot for 20s.

If all the dragon does is blast them with Lightning Burst, then it is going to be a long, long fight - if they stay spread out so the dragon can only hit one target at a time, they fight is likely to go 40+ rounds. Depending on how well they keep alive their damage-dealers, depending on the dice rolls, I'd say it could go either way - the party has maybe a 50/50 shot of victory.

The key is, the dragon is doing just as piddling damage as the party. 1d6+4 damage a round? And the characters that will be the biggest threat to him - rangers, wizards, elven rogues - will be the hardest for him to hit... especially with a fighter who keeps marking him.

A party with a bow ranger, elven rogue, long-range wizard, strength fighter and strength cleric... is almost certain to win, in this environment.

A party with a halfling rogue, long-range wizard, strength fighter, wisdom cleric and warlock... is probably going to lose.

A party with a mix will have an even shot at it.

Now, if the dragon is willing to get close enough to use its breath weapon, the entire scenario changes. Its damage goes up significantly, cutting the party survival time down to 15-20 rounds. On the other hand, that means 1 in every 3 rounds, he has gotten within 10 squares of the party, which opens up many more powers for casters - potentially even ones that can bring him down to the ground where he can be cornered by a fighter.

Honestly, if the DM has removed all cover and prevented any creative solutions, than the party spreads out, takes out the ranged weapons every character should have bought back in town, and hopes for the best. That's basically all there is to it.

great post, thanks.

So listen, adventurers: Never leave the house without a rope, a couple of javelins, and that bow you never intended to use.

For the dragon the best tactic is probably:
Save Frightful Presence for a situation where he is in close combat and it becomes dangerous.
Instead blast them immediately with the breath weapon from 2 squares away, use an action point, and use draconic fury on the initial victim, then fly away if still having a move action left.
From then on attack with Lightning Burst until Breath Weapon recharges, pick one of the spread out characters, breath him with lightning and if other characters are foolish enough to still be too close get them to, then perhaps spend the 2nd action point, and use Draconic Fury again. And so on.
I would love to test this out...

 

[Patlin]

Run, find cover, and fight under better tactical circumstances.

Yeah, run for a cave or anything with a roof, to limit flying options. Also provides a great answer to "Hey, DM, why should we go into this obviuosly dangerous dungeon and get ourselves killed?" -- why, because outside you can't even properly engage the flying Dragon! The dungeon is the only cover around...

 

[Shadeus]

His speed on the ground is 8, flying 10.
If they try to hide in the bushes, he can still randomly blast the area non-stop.
They need to split up and hope for the best, trying to follow him and find the lair.

I ran into something similar with a hellfire harpy (that nasty piece of work has a 20 sq aura that did 5 fire each round). The solution was, I read the rules at the back of the Monster Manual on flying. I don't have it handy, but if you look at the back on the flying entry, the maximum height that a creature can fly is it's fly speed. So in this instance, it looks like the maximum height it's supposed to be able to fly is 10 based on it's movement.

At least I think that's the case. Could someone verify that for me?

 

[socratesgonemad]

Have you thought about having the players do a skill challenge to maneuver the dragon into a confined area? While it might not be what you're looking for, it could give your party more of a fighting chance.

 

[MrMyth]

Minor action is utterly reasonable. Same action type a player uses to draw out an object.

Hmm, I was comparing it more to escaping a grab, which would be a move action, but I suppose I can see that interpretation. Still, given it requires actively attacking the rope to remove the hindrance, it seems a bit much to treat it is simply a minor. On the other hand, setting a precedent for being able to easily snag enemies without them being able to easily escape is probably a dangerous path to go down - though, again, it seems most comparable to a grab, both in circumstance and effect.

Now, to be fair, the DM gets to decide in the first place whether the tactic is even valid to snag the dragon, and it could make for an interesting fight if enough PCs are able to fire ropes at it, as the dragon has to spend more and more actions freeing itself as it gets pulled closer... I can see that making for a cinematic scene, if an unlikely one.

 

[MrMyth]

I ran into something similar with a hellfire harpy (that nasty piece of work has a 20 sq aura that did 5 fire each round). The solution was, I read the rules at the back of the Monster Manual on flying. I don't have it handy, but if you look at the back on the flying entry, the maximum height that a creature can fly is it's fly speed. So in this instance, it looks like the maximum height it's supposed to be able to fly is 10 based on it's movement.

At least I think that's the case. Could someone verify that for me?

I think that is only if it has the 'altitude limit' notation attached to its fly speed, such as with a Gibbering Abomination or.... well, that actually seems to be the only one in the MM.

 

[MrMyth]

For the dragon the best tactic is probably:
Save Frightful Presence for a situation where he is in close combat and it becomes dangerous.
Instead blast them immediately with the breath weapon from 2 squares away, use an action point, and use draconic fury on the initial victim, then fly away if still having a move action left.
From then on attack with Lightning Burst until Breath Weapon recharges, pick one of the spread out characters, breath him with lightning and if other characters are foolish enough to still be too close get them to, then perhaps spend the 2nd action point, and use Draconic Fury again. And so on.
I would love to test this out...

For the Dragon, actually, figuring out its plans are quite interesting. Its breath weapon is really big damage, and it is unlikely the PCs will be able to spread out far enough to not have multiple targets for the breath. However, that opens up much more retaliation from the PCs. It might be worth it to ping away at the biggest threat, and then bring in the breath weapon to finish him - especially if the dragon is close to bloodied, and thus likely to get another free breath when they retaliate.

The biggest danger to the dragon is any characters with lightning resistance, who will be able to shrug off almost anything he can throw at them.

Unfortunately, I did just realize something that makes him much, much worse - Lightning Burst is a Burst 2. That means he can stay 22 squares off the ground, and fire it at a square 20 squares away, and still hit the PCs standing on the ground at the edge of the burst. This means longbow archers are now at long-range penalties, and Javelins and Magic Missiles can't reach unless a PC can jump into the third square before attacking - which is unlikely. The only way they might do so is by getting on each others shoulders - at which point the dragon has multiple targets for Lightning Burst.

So the lesson is apparently for everyone to carry around rope, javelins, longbows, and a 10' ladder.

 

[Orcus Porkus]

So the lesson is apparently for everyone to carry around rope, javelins, longbows, and a 10' ladder.

Tenser's Floating Disk!!!! uh damn, only one feet above the ground.
To me it looks like the blue dragon can't be beaten in the open by heroic tier characters unless he is reckless or suicidal...

 

[MrMyth]

Tenser's Floating Disk!!!! uh damn, only one feet above the ground.
To me it looks like the blue dragon can't be beaten in the open by heroic tier characters unless he is reckless or suicidal...

I think "can't be" might be too strong to say. As mentioned before, if he is really just sniping from as far away as possible, it will take 40+ rounds to kill the PCs. If they happen to all be carrying longbows or greatbows or whatever, they can plink away at him just as he does at them, and have some chance at victory. Probably not a great one, but not non-existent. And a few specific elements could make a big difference. A single effective greatbow archer with a potion of elecricity resistance could likely solo the dragon in a one-on-one purely sniping contest (and the threat of other PCs on the ground prevents the dragon from joining into melee.)

I think it safe to say that almost any group, even a successful one, is likely to have several characters get knocked out during the course of te fight, and will need to make very effective use of resources to emerge victorious. In a pure sniping contest, it is simply a matter of attrition. The PCs have less hp, but many more ways to trigger healing surges. The dragon does higher consistent damage. Where is the line drawn? Hard to say. Can the dragon afford to come closer to unleash its breath weapon? That will depend on the group.

So much of this depends on group composition. (And terrain and resources, but even if we dismiss those, the fight will change from one party to the next. Even with a generically 'well-prepared' group, how much difference those preparations make will vary.)