How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[KarinsDad]

I would like to note that you cannot ready an action out of combat. Out of combat you can state that you are training a crossbow on a door if someone enters it, but that is not a readied action. It would put you in a state of preparedness that would make it very hard to get a surprise round on you by entering through the door, but initiative would still be rolled when someone enters the door.

Why?

Why can the PCs not declare a ready action which results in the start of combat, even though they do not see an opponent?

 

[William_2]

“As a surprise action, one PC declares that he is readying to attack (or pull out his weapon, or whatever) if anyone attacks him. This automatically puts the situation into combat, regardless of whether anyone is actually fighting.”

No, I don’t think this does have that effect, even if you allow it. It is not readying in the combat sense. Readying is when your reflexes have proven quicker than someone else’s, but you choose to wait. What you are describing is merely intent, in my view. Yes, everyone always tries to be alert and act first- so all opponents should also have this frame of mind, and then where are you? In need of a system that allows characters to act on their intentions as quickly as their reflexes allow. Initiative is a very good system for this, in my view- elegantly simple, fair.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think it's a game mechanic problem, someone who isn't trained to react quickly (Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative) very well can be overcome by a swifter assailant who gets the jump on them. It's how the world works. Additionally, if you aren't trained/skilled awareness wise (spot/listen vs. hide/move silently or bluff vs. sense motive) it is also easy to be had in the same sort of situation.

I don't have a problem with them being slower to react. That is why we have surprise rounds.

I have a problem with them being ready for an attack and then being unable to react to it. This happens in round one. It does not happen in rounds two through twenty.

That is what is nonsensical to me.


If the rule in the DMG was that you are only flatfooted in a surprise round and there was nothing special about round one (and people were not used to it the way it currently is in the rules), I suspect that very few people would have a problem with it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why?

Why can the PCs not declare a ready action which results in the start of combat, even though they do not see an opponent?

1. Because the rules say you can't.

2. Because if one could declare a ready action at any time, then I start off every game in which you're DMing by saying, "I ready an action to attack the first thing that looks hostile." I am now immune to being surprised, because I have already started combat. I am no longer flat-footed - ever.

 

[diaglo]

1. Because the rules say you can't.

2. Because if one could declare a ready action at any time, then I start off every game in which you're DMing by saying, "I ready an action to attack the first thing that looks hostile." I am now immune to being surprised, because I have already started combat. I am no longer flat-footed - ever.

and as a DM, the smart thing to do would to always have readied action when someone opens a door.

"i attack anyone not known to me."

so the monsters would never be surprised either.

even when they should be sleeping.

edit: that is to say i completely agree with Pat

 

[KarinsDad]

“As a surprise action, one PC declares that he is readying to attack (or pull out his weapon, or whatever) if anyone attacks him. This automatically puts the situation into combat, regardless of whether anyone is actually fighting.”

No, I don’t think this does have that effect, even if you allow it. It is not readying in the combat sense. Readying is when your reflexes have proven quicker than someone else’s, but you choose to wait.

Not if you are readying from the previous round. Your reflexes were not faster in that case.

What you are describing is merely intent, in my view. Yes, everyone always tries to be alert and act first- so all opponents should also have this frame of mind, and then where are you? In need of a system that allows characters to act on their intentions as quickly as their reflexes allow. Initiative is a very good system for this, in my view- elegantly simple, fair.

Not in round one it isn't.

I have no problem with opponents acting first.

I have a problem with opponents racing through 12 PCs and attacking the PC Wizard, EVEN THOUGH all 12 PCs were anticipating that action.

This silliness only occurs on round one. On round two, it no longer happens.

That's a game mechanic problem and one which can be resolved (for those of us who do not like this type of thing) by allowing PCs to start combat whenever they want.

 

[KarinsDad]

1. Because the rules say you can't.

Where?

2. Because if one could declare a ready action at any time, then I start off every game in which you're DMing by saying, "I ready an action to attack the first thing that looks hostile." I am now immune to being surprised, because I have already started combat. I am no longer flat-footed - ever.

Let's talk reasonableness here.

Is it reasonable to do this when you are outside a dungeon door and expect enemies within?

Is it reasonable to do this when you are guarding the King?

I don't think anyone has a problem with not doing this "all day long". But when the players think "something is up", what in the rules prevents this?


Is it reasonable for the PCs to tie a rope around another PC and declare that they are readying an action to pull him from harm if he steps on a pit trap?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Where?

It's not in the SRD, so I can't give you the exact text, but somewhere in the Combat section of the PHB (or, possibly, buried in the DMG) is something to the effect of:

"Some players will want to ready actions outside of combat - as in, I ready an action to shoot whatever comes through that door. Don't let them do this. The Ready action only applies inside of combat. Outside of combat use initiative rolls."

I'll see if I can find the exact text elsewhere, however.

 

[William_2]

Why?

Why can the PCs not declare a ready action which results in the start of combat, even though they do not see an opponent?

My answer is: you can only ready an action when it is your turn in the initiative order. No initiative, no readying an action. It has nothing to do, really, with some of the concepts above, which could certainly be described as being “ready”, or “prepared”, certainly. I agree that such preparations will reduce the likelihood of a surprise round in many circumstances.

Encounters start when specific combatants become aware of each others immediate presence, and attempt to act on that knowledge. Awareness can be by sound or sight, but not by suspicion or constant paranoia, in my view. Lacking surprise, characters act in initiative order to reflect their reflexes. Combat starts when an encounter turns violent, which it may or may not. It is combat once an attack is made, certainly- but all encounters start with initiative regardless, and it is when there is genuine awareness of the proximity of others (foe or benevolent strangers, doesn’t matter). I still say the initiative system is a great tool that handles these situations really well.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I have a problem with opponents racing through 12 PCs and attacking the PC Wizard, EVEN THOUGH all 12 PCs were anticipating that action.

How are they racing through 12 PCs?

Note that you can't charge unless you have a straight line, so the windy, twisting path they are following still has to be shorter than a single move - and they still only get one attack at the end of it.