How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[RigaMortus]

I know this post is from page 1, but I just had to respond to it...

We had a weird scenario come up in my group a while back...

On our way to a city, we met some soldiers. Due to differing oppinions (too lengthy to describe here ) our fighter drew his sword and this resulted in the soldiers attacking us... this is all pretty normal, but here comes the funny part...

The soldiers won initiative, thus catching our fighter (and the rest of us) flatfooted, but our DM *specifically* told us that they attacked us because "we attacked first"...!... so... we attack first, but are >still< caught off guard!?!?

This is true according to the rules, but it makes >no< sense! Needless to say, we were not happy about that ruling

EDIT: sorry if I got a bit off track here...

I think your DM handled it a bit wrong IMO (not entirely wrong thoug). You see, initiative is just a way to break down the free-form system of roleplaying so that everyone gets a turn. Pretty much, anyone can do anything at any time. But when an "opposing force" (friend or foe) wants to react to you, you need to take turns, thus rolling init.

In your case, the Fighter probably intended to fight. So he drew his weapon. Note that he did not have to roll init prior to drawing his weapon. It wasn't until an "opposing force" (the guards) wanted to react to this, that init was rolled. So again, Fighter draws weapon, guards see this and wish to react, so init is rolled. The guards roll higher and get to react. This is where your DM went wrong (IMO). The guards did not know your intentions really. I think it would have been more plausable for the guards to either Ready until you did something or Delay. Now, if drawing your weapon is a crime, or you made your intentions well known, then I can see where the guards were justified in pulling their weapons and attacking you.

The way I would have worded it if I were your DM is, "The guards attacked first because they saw you draw your weapons" Plain and simple. You clearly did not "attack" them first, although it could be argued you initiated combat. But still, the reason the guards attacked was because they saw you drawing your weapons and were able to react quicker than you did.

 

[Gantros]

#1. Characters do not start combat, the DM decides when combat is initiated. This may bear repeating, as you have either missed it or ignored it each time it has been mentioned.

#2. A character cannot use the ready action outside of combat.

Those two are paraphrased by me from the DMG, pg. 21-26. I posted the relevant actual quotes in my previous post.

I suppose I will test the theory that if something is repeatedly posted enough times in a thread, people will actually start to read it...

Pull out your DMG and flip to page 23. Read the section titled Both Sides Aware at the Same Time, and the accompanying Example (Both Aware but Cannot Interact Immediately). Observe that in this case, combat actions begin before rolling initiative. The examples given are casting spells, drinking potions, moving around, and (although it's not explicitly described as such) readying actions. Time is measured in rounds. The two parties get into position. Then, after two combat rounds have passed, someone opens the door between the two parties. And only then is initiative rolled, because only then does order of action become important.

You could, of course, interpret this as saying that only non-combat actions can occur before initiative is rolled, and readying an attack counts as a combat action that triggers initiative. But doing so just results in absurd situations where fully prepared combatants can still be caught flat-footed in the first round of battle, and then suddenly become unable to be caught flat-footed in the midst of battle even when there's a flurry of activity going on around them.

Why not instead just interpret it the way that has been suggested in this thread? What kind of badness are you afraid it could cause? If people are going to try so hard to look for a way to prevent players from readying actions in preparation for battle, at least explain why you think it is necessary.

 

[Gantros]

Isn't there an optional rule in DMG that would only give combatants a partial action in a surprise round? So KD, perhaps you could rule this be the case in round 1 as well. IOW, combatants are only allowed to take EITHER a standard or move action in surprise round or round 1 until everyone is no longer flatfooted. This way, in the surprise round (or rd1) the assassin would only be able to quickly fire an arrow at the king OR move closer to the target but NOT BOTH. Everyone else then takes their partial actions in initiative order. In round 2 everyone can then take normal actions. Would this work?

This is an interesting idea. The DMG says that only standard actions can be taken in the surprise round because you need to take a moment to assess the situation before taking action. This has a certain logic to it, and it seems like it might make sense to limit everyone to just a standard action in their first round of combat. That would probably make things more realistic, but it would require a house rule since it's clearly a change from the RAW.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

DMG, page 25-26: Adjudicating the Ready Action, last paragraph, first line: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside of combat."

Apparently it's ok for monsters.

Now, can you provide some reference that says when combat starts?

In my game, I fudge initiative a lot when it would make sense. Take, for example, the goblins on the other side of the door. They heard the party arguing about the best way to ambush the goblins on the other side of the door, and got behind a table, aiming their crossbows to hit anything opening the door. Now, about 30 seconds later, the party flings open the door, and combat begins with one of the dexterity-based fighters running in. Wham, he gets hit with a crossbow bolt, and the other misses.

The player cries foul. He rolled a 24 for initiative, and the goblins couldn't have both beat him, I mean, they're goblins...how can they have a dex that high?

Well, I tell him, they've been in combat rounds for 30 seconds, ever since they set themselves up to nail you with those crossbow bolt. You just entered combat. Using the new combatant rules, we find that new combatants entering a combat scene when they are aware of the foes come in at an initiative just before the highest-initiative character in the combat. They do this. But the goblins have been spending 5 rounds performing ready actions to shoot anyone coming through the door. Their initiative changes to be just before the party, even though the party's initiative was set at just before the goblins' turn...but the goblins' turn would be to set a ready action for a 6th round. So they strike first, and then the party all get to act in order of initiative bonus (since they all enter combat on the same initiative number).

My take on when combat begins is that it begins when two things happen:

1. A character becomes aware of another character he might want to do something violent to.
2. That character pulls out a weapon, readies a spell, etc. and either attacks or gets ready to attack on a condition that could reasonably be expected to happen in under a minute. After a minute, the goblins will probably start to wonder if the party is ever going to open that door, and maybe spend a round or two making standard-action listen checks instead of ready actions.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ok, either you're just trying to be arguementative, or I'm not being clear enough. I'll assume the latter and try to explain this to you again.

#1. Characters do not start combat, the DM decides when combat is initiated. This may bear repeating, as you have either missed it or ignored it each time it has been mentioned.

#2. A character cannot use the ready action outside of combat.

Those two are paraphrased by me from the DMG, pg. 21-26. I posted the relevant actual quotes in my previous post.

Now, if you are the DM, and your player says he wants to train his crossbow on the door so that he can shoot anything coming out, what are your options?

For someone who states that I miss or ignore things, you sure do miss or ignore things.

I have repeatedly stated that you must be aware of your opponents to initiate combat with a ready action. You cannot just aim a crossbow at a door and use this technique because the rules prohibit you from doing it if you are not aware of your opponent. But, here you are giving an example that I have already stated doesn't work with this.

I have repeatedly stated that many actions cannot be used out of combat. Which ones? Combat only ones. Like swinging your sword at an opponent or readying an action or firing your bow at someone. ALL of these actions cannot be done out of combat. So, your point number 2 is irrelevant to this thread.

Also, although I am aware that the DM determines when combat starts, I am also aware that most DMs are reasonable. If I declare an action to fire my bow at an opponent, I do not expect the DM to say "Nope, nope. I declare when combat starts, not you.".

So, given all of these misconceptions of yours and lack of reading of what I write, what again is your point?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I don't see the solution here.

In the example with the assassin and the guards, the assassin sees the king and readies an action to charge him. He then gets to act before everyone else because he readied and action to do so. Now he runs past all the guards who are flatfooted and can't take AoO against him and kills the king before they can react.

And they never even had a chance to beat his initiative because he didn't have to use the initiative system.

 

[Gantros]

You can't just ready an action to charge or attack. It has to be triggered by something specific. The assassin has to say, "I prepare to charge at the king and attack if he does x", where x has to be some specific event.

If the guards didn't ready an action to intercept the assassin if he tried to approach the king, then they would have to roll initiative against the assassin and would be flat-footed until their turn. If they did ready such an action before the assassin decided to attack, then they would not be flat-footed and would get AoOs as the assassin rushed by. If the guards decided to ready their action and the assassin chose that moment to attack, then they have to check initiative and win in order to ready their action in time.

The DM decides who takes the first action, and thus when combat begins. The guards can't just sit there all day with a readied action, because there is no specific threat to prepare for. Only once they are aware of a specific threat (in this case the potential assassin walking toward them) can they choose to ready an appropriate action, and the DM can initiate combat at that point to allow them to do so. If the assassin sees them ready their weapons and decides to respond, then initiative can be rolled to determine if he can react before they were able to prepare. If he chooses not to attack or charge right away, then there is no need to roll initiative until he does so.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The assassin has to say, "I prepare to charge at the king and attack if he does x", where x has to be some specific event.

Well, he can't Ready a Charge, unless he's restricted to a standard or move action only.

Like if he's a zombie, or it's the surprise round.

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

"I prepare to charge at the king and attack if he does x", where x has to be some specific event.

"I ready an action to fire a shot at the king if he opens his mouth." "... if he blinks."

Well, he can't Ready a Charge, unless he's restricted to a standard or move action only.

Honestly, I'm not sure how it would work calling out ready actions outside of combat. That's generally one reason I call initiative before the characters can take actions.

 

[Zaebos]

I will admit I haven't read the entire thread, but I will add my 2 bits in.

I think many of you are missing a fundamental mechanic about the surprise round...

You may only take a standard action during a surprise round. PH 137.

However, the way I would rule the original poster's question is have my players roll sense motive vs. the enemy's bluff check. Any who succeed are aware and get to roll initiative. Any who don't succeed are Flat-Footed. If all succeed no surprise round is needed (unless of course the rest of the guild is unaware as well).

Just remember, you only get a standard action during a surprise round.