How to Legally Overcome Flatfooted

[Gantros]

I said the following two things:

#1. The DM decides when combat is initiated.

#2. A character cannot use the ready action outside of combat.

I don't have my DMG at work with me, could you quote the relevant section? It does, however, sound like the DM decided that combat was initiated. Therefore, combat actions are allowed. So where was the arguement again? What point were you trying to make? I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to flame.

Okay... the point I was disputing was that initiating combat always = rolling for initiative. I think the frustrating part was that you made those two points which no one was disputing, and presented them as proof that you can't start a battle with a readied action. What I've been debating in this thread is, can you ready an action prior to anyone rolling initiative, thus allowing you a chance to act before someone else when hostilities start and avoid being flat-footed, even if they win initiative.

My position is that yes, in some circumstances this is possible without having to change the rules. I didn't want to quote a large passage from the DMG, but essentially the example I referenced says that once one or both parties become aware of the other, the DM can start tracking rounds (effectively initiating combat), and the combatants can take preparatory actions. As long as none of these actions are contested (i.e. it doesn't matter who goes first), then there is no need to roll initiative. I submit that during this time it is allowable for someone to Ready an action. Once a contested action does occur, initiative is rolled and any readied actions are resolved normally.

I think along the way some confusion has been created around whether someone can force combat to start by readying an action, which sounds like it violates the rules. Perhaps a better way to put it is, if someone decides that they want to ready an action, and the DM decides that it makes sense to do so, then combat should be started at that point, allowing the Ready action to be taken. By starting combat, the DM also gives the opposing party an opportunity to take actions of their own, if they are aware of the threat. If the actions taken by each side result in some form of interaction where the order of action is important, then intiative must be rolled and combat proceeds as normal.

I believe this solves the problem that prompted this thread, and can gracefully handle all the other scenarios presented along its course. I also believe it doesn't break any rules, although it may not be obvious that this is allowable from they way they are written. I was hoping people could think of any cases where this just wouldn't work, or would result in unrealistic situations.

 

[IcyCool]

Okay... the point I was disputing was that initiating combat always = rolling for initiative.

Perhaps you confused me with someone else? I did not say this. I think this is what would be called a strawman.

I think the frustrating part was that you made those two points which no one was disputing, and presented them as proof that you can't start a battle with a readied action.

No. What I said was that a player cannot initiate combat. Note the difference? He can't do it with a ready action, shooting an arrow, or dancing the hokey-pokey.

What I've been debating in this thread is, can you ready an action prior to anyone rolling initiative, thus allowing you a chance to act before someone else when hostilities start and avoid being flat-footed, even if they win initiative.

What does this have to do with the points I made? I stated that a player cannot perform the ready action outside of combat. As you have pointed out, combat can be started without rolling for initiative. I think you read something into my posts that wasn't there. But don't worry about it, sometimes I read things into my posts that aren't there either

 

[moritheil]

By that sentence, I meant that you could catch me flat-footed (as if you suprised me), even when I am waiting for your attack.

Beating my init, sure.

Sneak attacking me and safely getting past my guards when they and I are waiting for you to make a move, nonsensical.

It's a flaw in the game mechanics.

I've read three pages of this, and though I resisted two prior urges to post, all in all the same thing that keeps occuring to me is that you do not think that it is at all possible for someone to act faster than someone else who expects them.

IMC, this isn't the case; even if you're "prepared," someone could simply act much faster than you thought was humanly possible and make you look the fool. I mean, preparation implies the expectation of a limited number of "reasonable" things that might start happening. If, say, two street thugs appear at opposite ends of an alley, both pull out switchblades, and eye each other warily, they can both be aware of and prepared for an attack by the other.

Now suppose that one thug's hands move, so fast that he doesn't appear to move, and the other thug, surprised, now realizes that a knife handle is sticking out from his chest. Wow, he really wasn't expecting that. And this is the sort of explanation that can be given to make "flatfooted" situations mix with "aware" situations.

In your example, perhaps the dozing guards are all caught looking like ponces and fumbling to bring their weapons to bear as the assassin darts past them in a burst of speed.

I am painfully aware, of course, that no amount of making it seem more palatable will make you budge an inch on what you feel is a rules deficiency. Run it however you want in your campaign.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I've read three pages of this, and though I resisted two prior urges to post, all in all the same thing that keeps occuring to me is that you do not think that it is at all possible for someone to act faster than someone else who expects them.

This is really the major point here. Don't think of this in terms of "realism", think of it in terms of cinematics. If you could see a powerful character in the middle of a throne room, surrounded entirely by guards suddenly reach into his belt and throw a dagger through the throat of the king seated there before the guards have time to even take the step towards him and attack him, then you can envision flat footedness in this situation. Think Riddick.

To me, flatfootedness is the difference between THINKING there might be combat and KNOWING there is.

You can sit in a room with a dangerous person for hours, thinking that at any time he might try to kill you. But you can never be certain at exactly WHICH moment it'll happen. Maybe you'll look away for a split second as you think you hear a noise at the door, and in that split second, the person has a dagger in hand and at your throat.

I also don't know what other people are talking about, my combat always starts with rolling init. Atlso, combat starts at the exact moment both sides are aware of each other and aware that each other are threats.

So, using this policy, if a group of adventures walks up to a door, listens at it, they hear Gnoll voices inside. They inform each other that there are Gnolls in the room, they then open the door, and the Gnolls become aware of them. Initiative is rolled. The PCs get a surprise round because prior to rolling initiative, the Gnolls were unaware of the other side (assume they failed any listen checks to hear the PCs). Since combat doesn't start until the Gnolls are aware of the PCs, no one can ready an action until then.

Now, the Gnolls might THINK there are adventurers on the way to their room, but they don't know the exact moment that door is going to open. That gives the PCs about 1 or 2 seconds as the Gnolls' brains register that a door has opened and there are PCs on the other side and that they should get ready to duck as they are about to get attacked. They were prepared for a battle but didn't react fast enough to the battle actually starting.

The same thing holds true for an assassin. He is wandering through the crowd, disguised. No one knows he is an assassin. The guards know there must be an assassin out there somewhere and are ready for one to show up. But WHO is the assassin? Will he show up this second or 10 minutes from now? Anyone in the crowd COULD be him, but there's lots of people who aren't him. Suddenly, you catch a glimpse of steel as the assassin draws his dagger and rushes past you in a blur as your brain tries in vain to react to what you've just seen, but alas, you weren't fast enough (i.e. you lost init) and he managed to get past you before you could swing at him.

And as for your problem about this not being able to happen in any round other than the 1st, you'd be wrong. An assassin, in the middle of combat could become visible right beside the king and kill him, the king is flatfooted to him. The only difference is in the amount of actions that he can take while everyone is flat footed to him. The difference between the two situations is merely that the guards are already spinning around, swinging their swords around, dodging blows and acting on instinct.

The best example in real life I can give of this is driving a car. If you are driving around, you are always looking in your mirrors, being careful not to hit anyone. However, if you see a car suddenly slam on it's breaks in front of you, it still takes a second to stop. You may not have been paying enough attention to slam on the breaks in time not to hit him. However, also in this second, time seems to slow down for you as adreneline is going through your system. You put both your hands on the wheel, you sit up straight, you look around. You may have been partially aware of the car to your left before, but now you are perfectly aware of the one behind you, the one to your right and back a bit and your brain has already calculated the distance needed to stop and possible routes other than stopping, like that hole to your right, if you swirve and speed up. You weren't aware of the exact positions of all of these cars before it suddenly became important to know them all. It still takes a second to react, and reaction times vary from person to person (i.e. initiative modifier). If you don't react in time, you will hit the other car. Just like if you don't react in time, the assassin will get past you.

Flatfootedness represents someone making a quick action before people have time to react. The feat Combat Reflexes represents training in acting in a split second to things that catch you surprised.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I missed one more point now that I've reread the thread.

Even in the example where the party and the enemies were on other sides of a door and both were aware and they were taking actions that were normally combat actions before rolling init, it didn't say they weren't flat footed the first round after the door was open. It didn't even say combat had become. Just that they were keeping track of rounds. Which you can do even if you're not in combat. The DMG also says it's possible to perform actions which are normally combat actions outside of combat in some situations, such as healing. (except for ready which it specifically says cannot) My interpretation of this situation is that each side drinks potions, casts spells, then the door is open, initiative is rolled, and everyone becomes flatfooted. One of them might react so blindingly fast after the door opens that the other side might not expect it quite that quickly. This is because p.25 of the DMG defines combat as "when you are keeping track of rounds and the players are acting in initiative order". So, until you roll init, you are not in combat and can't ready. As in the above situation, I don't allow rolling of init unless there is a reason combat should be beginning (generally the first time someone on either side attempts a combat action on the other side)

There is, however, ONE possibility for using the RAW to do what you want, the section in the DMG on p.24 on Simultaneous Actions refers to actions that should be happening at the same time. It pretty much says that a DM is within his right to say that something doesn't happen until the end of the round due to the fact that everyone around him would have time to act before it happened. So, using this rule, you could say that the assassin runs across the room while everyone is flat footed, gets to the wizard or king or whoever and doesn't get his attack until the very end of the round in order to maintain the feeling that everyone is going at the same time. The guards all have their rounds to attack the assassin and try to kill him before he gets his attack off.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Okay, I read this interminably wrong thread and had one thing through my mind.

The rules were a little muddy, easily houseruled, but KD was kinda right. Sort of.
But I tried to write a post proving it per the RAW. I wound up disproving it in general, but plugging the loophole for the guards, at least as far as AoO's.

As per the RAW, combat actions that do not involve direct combat become possible before initiative is rolled, if both sides are aware. Healing, buffing, movement, etc.. No action that directly affects enemies can take place without initiative.

As per the RAW, readying a standard or move action IS an combat action. It is a combat action. It does not directly affect the opponents, thus it falls under the Healing, buffing movement category.

So, If someone readies an action, it does NOT cause initiative to get rolled. Readying an action does not directly start iniative-bound combat, it starts non-interacting combat prep.

However, if the hypothetical flat-footed King's guards readied ANY kind of action that might affect the PC's in the pre-initiative rounds, and the trigger occurs as or before the hypothetical rogue moves 30 feet and sneak attacks the king, the Guards go BEFORE the rogue, and such would get AoO's

If the trigger was Bob ther cleric attacking, and Bob goes at 3 and the hypothetical rogue goes at 9, the guards DON't get AoOs.

Please note that the SRD does NOT include references to the non-interacting combat prep rounds with mutually aware parties, so that is considered closed content, and WotC IP.

So, if you need SRD, rather than D&DRAW, I dunno.

*edit* Majuro Oakheart idea about the simultaneous actions is actually a better way.

I do think that initiative granularity is the most unrealistic of most playable combat RPGs.

*2nd edit* made some clarifications

 

[Sekket]

I always merely say that I enter combat and ready myself for an attack before the blows start coming... that way, I automatically win initiative against anyone who was foolish enough to not prepare themselves.