D&D (2024) How to simply fix Ranger in 2024.

[UngeheuerLich]

The math does not change with your bubble.

This video discusses the problems with HM and bonus action from about 1:40 to 3:00 and talks about the bigger HM issues at around 14:00-16:00.

I have seen that. I think this analysis is terrible. Very bad indeed.

It is an "optimzer" channel. Absolutely not representing our games and probably not most games.

But if it applies to your games. Good for you.

And I think you don't know how math works.
Math needs certain assumptions to be applied. If your assumptions are wrong, you can calculate correctly and still have a wrong result.

For your convenience, a link for you:

Mathematical model - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After you read it, we can discuss further.

This is why I like treantmonks analyses. He is open with his assumptions and he knows the limits of his modelling.

 

[Horwath]

I have seen that. I think this analysis is terrible. Very bad indeed.

It is an "optimzer" channel. Absolutely not representing our games and probably not most games.

But if it applies to your games. Good for you.

And I think you don't know how math works.
Math needs certain assumptions to be applied. If your assumptions are wrong, you can calculate correctly and still have a wrong result.

For your convenience, a link for you:

Mathematical model - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

After you read it, we can discuss further.

This is why I like treantmonks analyses. He is open with his assumptions and he knows the limits of his modelling.

The analysis is not that good, that I agree, but some things still stand.

Mandatory usages of Concentration spells is bad.
Additional features linked to that spell are bad
Having mandatory Conc spells from 1st level without Con saves on a potential melee character is also bad design.

Sadly, bets way to utilize this ranger's feature is to take it after 1st level of fighter.

as for the "optimizer" part, honestly only "optimizers" and "powergamers" should playtest new material, so things like this do not happen, nor Conjure minor elementals or Twilight clerics.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The analysis is not that good, that I agree, but some things still stand.

Yes. Some things might stand.

Mandatory usages of Concentration spells is bad.

It is not a mandatory use. But I do agree that at some point removing concentration moght have been ok. Probably at level 20 at least.
(Rogues also pay with damage when using cunning strike. At least there is some consistency.)

Additional features linked to that spell are bad

I disagree. As you know.

Having mandatory Conc spells from 1st level without Con saves on a potential melee character is also bad design.

Yes. Hard agree. Ranger should have at least con save proficiency. Ibjad swapped it with dex proficiency. Latest at level 9, where prof bonus raises to 4.

Sadly, bets way to utilize this ranger's feature is to take it after 1st level of fighter.

Yes. For STRangers, level 1 fighter dip seems strong.

as for the "optimizer" part, honestly only "optimizers" and "powergamers" should playtest new material, so things like this do not happen,

I see no problem here powerwise. Probably optimizers had (or have) shown that concentrationless hunter's mark is too strong.

nor Conjure minor elementals

Har agree.

or Twilight clerics.

I think the THP rules are the problem. They should state that features with a duration remove THP after they end. Actually I think ot works that way. But it is at least unclear.
But maybe even then the subclass is too strong.

 

[Horwath]

I think the THP rules are the problem. They should state that features with a duration remove THP after they end. Actually I think ot works that way. But it is at least unclear.
But maybe even then the subclass is too strong.

Duration is not the problem, all THPs, unless noted last until your Long rest or higher amount is gained.
and amount is also OK, what is the problem is that you reapply it for free every turn to everyone i 30ft. And can do it for a minute. possible 10× applications of THP.

It blows Inspiring leader feat not out of the water, but off the planet.

 

[Horwath]

I disagree. As you know.

heh, probably we wont ever agree, but there is versions of spells with War cleric and Dragon sorcerer where you can ignore Concentration and reduce duration to 1 minute. That could be rangers option also.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

heh, probably we wont ever agree, but there is versions of spells with War cleric and Dragon sorcerer where you can ignore Concentration and reduce duration to 1 minute. That could be rangers option also.

Maybe hunter's mark should be reduced to a single round then.
One minute is usally as good as 1 hour.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Duration is not the problem, all THPs, unless noted last until your Long rest or higher amount is gained.

Depends on the reading.
Spell effects end when the duration ends. Are THP an exception?

Imagine a spell that gives you -1d4 strength and has a duration of 1 minute.
Imagine a spell that is instantaneous and gives you -1d4 strength.
Long rests (2024) say, that attribute reductions are removed after a long rest.
So if you use the 1minute spell effect. Does the reduction last until your next long rest or 1 minute?

and amount is also OK, what is the problem is that you reapply it for free every turn to everyone i 30ft. And can do it for a minute. possible 10× applications of THP.

With my reading, after the 1 minute all THP fade away. But this reading is probably only one of two valid ones.

It blows Inspiring leader feat not out of the water, but off the planet.

Inspiring leader is an instantaneous effect. So it lasts until the next long rest.

Note that in 2024 spells with durations don't say they fade after the spell duration ends, as the general rule of durations state that effects end.

So the question is: what is the more specific rule that trumps the other one?

 

[Horwath]

Maybe hunter's mark should be reduced to a single round then.
One minute is usally as good as 1 hour.

not for published dungeons.
unless you clear one room per hour.

if it is few deadly+ combats per day, than yeah.

OK, single round, free action cast, but tracking bonuses persist on THAT target for 1HR to retain rangery feel, just the damage boots lasts one round.

 

[Minigiant]

Published adventures are designed around unoptimized newbies who have no magic items beyond what's included in the adventure of the "starting at higher level" guide.

The truth is if you are at a table of semi-optimized characters and yoour DM hands out magic items like candy then two match the amount of difficulty that would return back to equilibrium with the base assumption The DM should include a lot more and tougher enemies.

If you do that then the Ranger does not have enough spells to blow through.

Optimize PCs versus unoptimized encounters equals higher class balance stress.

Optimize PCs versus tougher encounters equals less class balance stress.

 

[Horwath]

Published adventures are designed around unoptimized newbies who have no magic items beyond what's included in the adventure of the "starting at higher level" guide.

The truth is if you are at a table of semi-optimized characters and yoour DM hands out magic items like candy then two match the amount of difficulty that would return back to equilibrium with the base assumption The DM should include a lot more and tougher enemies.

If you do that then the Ranger does not have enough spells to blow through.

Optimize PCs versus unoptimized encounters equals higher class balance stress.

Optimize PCs versus tougher encounters equals less class balance stress.

perhaps published adventures should be designed with optimized characters with experienced players?
that would be a lot better.

few TKPs never hurt anyone, it's a learning curve.

But, "easy" mode can be added, just halve all monsters HP and/or make them deal minimum damage.