How to stop Tumblers?

[Nail]

At that age, I loved the tables. I thought it was the coolest thing ever to have to look something up in the blue book....and know what page it was on.

 

[Someone]

I DMed a campaing where one of the players was a Thief acrobat; with the bonuses to the Tumble skill and the ability to take 10 even when threatened, we was able to cross the battlefield at full speed as if it were empty. And he still was the one dealing the less damage.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

so what your saying is classes with tumble normaly dont lend themselves to gross amounds of damage dealing?

 

[Wrathamon]

So a character surrounded by enemies needs to make a DC 25+16 Tumble check correct?

Also, is it one check to get past three guys or three checks each with escalating DCs?

 

[DreadArchon]

so what your saying is classes with tumble normaly dont lend themselves to gross amounds of damage dealing?

Not with the single standard action that they can take after using half of a turn to Tumble. Five attacks to the face with burly magic weapons usually beats out a single swing to the back, especially when you lack Sneak Attack (say you're tumbling as a Monk, Ranger, Mage, or Scout, for example). (And if you're only worried about Rogues, just take away Tumble as a class skill for them.)

Edit: And that's only against targets that (1) can be flanked, (2) can take precision damage, (3) are in the open, and (4) are engaged by a friendly. In my experience, Tumble is generally useful for getting out of AoO range or running away more than it is for attempting to flank.

 

[DungeonMaester]

There is a feat in the PHB that will let a character on a horse roll a ride check to oppose a attack roll. Well, in the interest of making D&D combat more live action (not in terms, realistic) I am working on a feat that will allow you to do the same with tumble, swim and jump.

Effectively, I agree with what Dark Archon said in the first page. Its really about not letting your guard down, and even if game designers have regrets about the outcome, I think it is perfect the way it is.

---Rusty

 

[IndyPendant]

Yet another vote for Tumble being fine as is.

I think the problem people percieve is they crunch the numbers and realize that at level 12 or so, tumbling past opponents becomes trivial, and at 15-18 tumbling through opponents becomes trivial.

Then they stop, don't think any further, and yell "OMG WTF BORKEN!!!!1eleven"

So. What.

At lower levels, tumbling is far from trivial to succeed. At mid-levels and higher, it's generally trivial if the tumbler does succeed! In most cases, the tumbler moves past foes to get at the back ranks (usually the BBEG) and often can make a single attack (if even that). Then the Fighter full-attacks the hell out of the (usually low-HP) tumbler, or the wizard 5' steps back and nukes/controls him or ports away. And often the (again, usually fragile) tumbler is stuck in the middle of a bunch of enemies, who are probably pretty pissed at him.

*shrug*

Look beyond the auto-success numbers. So a skilled tumbler can easily bypass many enemies to get to the back line. So what?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

tumble is fine as is.

 

[Nail]

So a character surrounded by enemies needs to make a DC 25+16 Tumble check correct?

If you mean: "If a size medium creature is completely surrounded by medium sized enemies without reach - that is, 8 enemies - is the check to avoid AoOs while tumbling through an enemy's space DC 25+16?"

Then the answer is: No. It's DC 25+14. See below.

Also, is it one check to get past three guys or three checks each with escalating DCs?

No to both.

Here's the SRD text:

...Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

One DC, multiple checks.

 

[DreadArchon]

Dark Archon

Off-topic: Dread Archon, not Dark Archon. Different game (Warhammer 40,000).

There is a feat in the PHB that will let a character on a horse roll a ride check to oppose a attack roll. Well, in the interest of making D&D combat more live action (not in terms, realistic) I am working on a feat that will allow you to do the same with tumble, swim and jump.

That could work, but I think it would be needlessly complicated. Also, Tumble ranks already give you AC while you're fighting defensively.