How to stop Tumblers?

[DreadArchon]

Tumble Through does not have a defense (except for Readied Actions which is a terrible defense). That's a bad rule. Virtually every other combat aspect in the game system has some form of defense.

Difficulty is its defense. It's an Epic skill use to do what you're describing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Difficulty is its defense. It's an Epic skill use to do what you're describing.

You are overstating your position.

The DC to Tumble Through is 25. A Rogue (and some other classes) can make that roll automatically by level 10 if that is their goal. It does not need to be Epic.

 

[Nail]

Bottom line: All auto-successes (i.e. high enough skill) where they involve a target and have no defenses are bad rules.

If tumble had a Target, I'd agree with you.

It doesn't.

 

[Nail]

The DC to Tumble Through is 25. A Rogue (and some other classes) can make that roll automatically by level 10 if that is their goal. It does not need to be Epic.

If there were a Line of guardsmen, the DC could be higher. +2 per extra threatening person, etc.

If the guardsmen were Knights, it would be harder.

If the King were on a Throne on a dias, the tumble DC would be harder, etc.

If the guardsmen readied an actio.....oh wait.... Where's that sig. of yours, KD?!

 

[SlagMortar]

And Tumble Through does not even require the Improved Overrun feat to avoid the AoO. The AoO avoidance is feat free (it just requires skill ranks).

Just thought I would point out that Improved Overrun feat does not let you avoid the attack of opportunity. Instead, it removes the opponents choice of whether to let you by or not. With the feat the opponent can not choose to let the overrunner by.

 

[KarinsDad]

If tumble had a Target, I'd agree with you.

It doesn't.

Semantics. The game mechanic for Tumble Through does not have a target, but the game result (moving through an enemy occupied square) is no different than Overrun where there is a target.

The main functionality of Overrun is to move through an opponent's square, it is not to knock him down. The reason this is the main functionality (and knocking him down is secondary functionality) is that the attacker does not get to choose whether the defender blocks or avoids. A PC could Overrun an NPC all day long and never knock him down because the NPC always avoids.

The main functionality of Overrun is therefore identical to the main functionality of Tumble Through: move through an enemy occupied square. Overrun has a defense. Tumble Through does not.

Bad rule. Bad.

 

[DreadArchon]

You are overstating your position.

The DC to Tumble Through is 25. A Rogue (and some other classes) can make that roll automatically by level 10 if that is their goal. It does not need to be Epic.

The DC to Tumble Through at half speed is 25. You're comparing it to Overrun, which lets you move twice that fast. The DC to Tumble Through at the same rate as an Overrun is 35. The Epic tables start at DC 30. Therefore, to Tumble as a substitute for Overrun requires an Epic check. This assumes, of course, that conditions are ideal, which they often are not.

And level 10? You'll need either feats or max (Elf) dex to get it by that point (both if you lack magic items to boost it), and you're still moving at only half speed, which makes it slower than an Overrun. Plus, then you find that you've put a great deal of effort into something which isn't even all that useful.

 

[Legildur]

The DC to Tumble Through at half speed is 25. You're comparing it to Overrun, which lets you move twice that fast. The DC to Tumble Through at the same rate as an Overrun is 35. The Epic tables start at DC 30. Therefore, to Tumble as a substitute for Overrun requires an Epic check. This assumes, of course, that conditions are ideal, which they often are not.

And level 10? You'll need either feats or max (Elf) dex to get it by that point (both if you lack magic items to boost it), and you're still moving at only half speed, which makes it slower than an Overrun. Plus, then you find that you've put a great deal of effort into something which isn't even all that useful.

Just because the Epic tables start around 30 does not make it an Epic check! Are you saying a simple tumble through an occupied square (DC25) across a natural cavern floor (+5) past a second opponent (+2) for a total DC 32 can only be carried out by Epic characters???? I hope not, as otherwise adventurers would never leave home if challenges weren't , well, challenges!

Elf monk (or rogue) starting with 18 Dex, +2 racial bonus to dex, and placing 4th and 8th level increases in Dex, and a pair of gloves of dexterity +2 gives Dex 24 (+7). Max ranks at level 10 is 13, and +2 synergy bonus from 5+ ranks in jump skill. Suddenly you have +22 Tumble modifier without even really trying (no feats or PrC etc)!

Also, Tumble, while only hald speed, still allows an attack at some point, whereas Overrun is the attack!

 

[KarinsDad]

The DC to Tumble Through at half speed is 25. You're comparing it to Overrun, which lets you move twice that fast. The DC to Tumble Through at the same rate as an Overrun is 35. The Epic tables start at DC 30. Therefore, to Tumble as a substitute for Overrun requires an Epic check. This assumes, of course, that conditions are ideal, which they often are not.

You are focusing on the wrong point. Yes, the abilities are slightly different.

But from a combat perspective, Overrun has a defense, preventing a Rogue from moving to the opposite side of a defender by moving through him. Tumble Through does not have this defense. Additionally, there are not too many ways to avoid the AoO with Overrun, but it is possibly to avoid the AoO of Tumble Through (again, making it more potent than Overrun).

Game balance is about pros and cons. Offenses and defenses. When an ability is added to the game that is difficult to prevent or defend against, it should be reviewed for balance.

And level 10? You'll need either feats or max (Elf) dex to get it by that point (both if you lack magic items to boost it), and you're still moving at only half speed, which makes it slower than an Overrun. Plus, then you find that you've put a great deal of effort into something which isn't even all that useful.

Utility is not the point. Game mechanics should not necessarily depend on how often one uses them. Just because one PC might use it a few times per year, another PC might often use it a few times per combat.

Plus, you mentioned Tumble Through being half movement twice here . It is only required to be half movement through the square of the opponent. This is closer to -5 movement than half for situations where getting through the opponent is the goal as opposed to avoiding AoOs. For example, 30 Move tends to go down to 25, not 15 (and by the time Rogues use Tumble Through a lot, they might have boosts to their movement, 40 going to 35 or even 60 going to 55).

Sometimes, a Rogue will also Tumble through the square in front of the target as well in order to avoid an AoO approaching the target, but that still only drops it from 30 to 20 for medium sized characters.

 

[Nail]

Semantics.

You and I both know how important those are on this part o' th' boards.

Tumble does nothing to the person who's squares you've tumbled through. Nothing at all. There is no Target.

Moreover, no where in the core rules are there *ever* opposed checks to determine if you provoke an AoO. Provoking from a 1st level commoner is exactly the same as provoking from a 20th level Ftr, etc for all situations.

The more I think on this, the more it becomes clear the designers got this right: No opposed checks for a tumble to avoid an AoO.

Good job, guys! (I don't say that often enough.)