How to stop Tumblers?

[KarinsDad]

Tumble, IMHO, is not such an ability.

To me, Tumble (and Casting Defensively) are exactly such abilities because the reason AoOs were introduced in the first place was to prevent non-stoppable actions in the game (due to a segmented circular initiative system), but the mechanics of these types of skills are such that PCs (and NPCs) can get around the AoO mechanic completely, especially at mid to high level (and even very low level for both Tumble Past and Cast Defensively).

Hence, Readying tends to be the only reasonable solution at high level to prevent Tumbling Rogues from getting past the guards and killing the King.


In fact, with the introduction of Immediate Actions (to also resolve problems with the segmented circular initiative system), Fighter types get screwed over even more.

Spell casters are more capable of reacting outside their turn, but the only mechanic that Fighter types had for reacting outside their turn was AoOs. AoOs are pretty much watered down with the Tumble Skill, the Casting Defensively skill, that spell in Spell Compendium where an Archer can fire missiles without provoking AoOs (forget its name).


As more books come out with more Immediate spells and more feats like the Improved Counterspell type feats, Spell casters are more capable of reacting outside of their turns, even at real low levels. As levels increase, Fighters are less capable of reacting outside their turns.

That is practically the definition of lack of balance.

 

[Darklone]

I actually like ready actions. I think they are an integral mechanic in the game system.

What I dislike is when a new ability is introduced to the game system and the most reasonable way to counter that ability is to ready an action. To me, all abilities should have pros and cons. If the only reasonable counter to an ability (feat, spell, whatever) is a ready action, the ability is probably broken. IMO.

Note: This applies basically to significant (typically) offensive or defensive abilities. I am not talking about getting a +1 to a skill or a save or some such.

I do agree... that's my biggest problem with the 5ft step backwards to cast or full attack with arrows. The most valid counter against that (except for eating the attack, closing and whacking the silly spellcasterdude with a full attack action yourself) is to ready a charge (to interrupt spellcasting/as soon as he starts to shoot). I don't like it, yet it works nicely.

 

[Legildur]

I do agree... that's my biggest problem with the 5ft step backwards to cast or full attack with arrows. The most valid counter against that (except for eating the attack, closing and whacking the silly spellcasterdude with a full attack action yourself) is to ready a charge (to interrupt spellcasting/as soon as he starts to shoot). I don't like it, yet it works nicely.

I also agree with KD. But Darklone, can you ready a charge? I think you used to be able to in 3.0, but I don't think so in 3.5.

 

[Darklone]

I also agree with KD. But Darklone, can you ready a charge? I think you used to be able to in 3.0, but I don't think so in 3.5.

Guess you might be right, but the good old partial charge is soooooo useful I would never give it up so I never really cared to check.

Now I checked... and it says you can charge if you're restricted to standard actions in this round... I'm still willing to give it a little more leeway and allow it.

 

[phindar]

I think you can Ready a partial action, or Delay a full, with the big difference that the partial goes off before the thing you're waiting on, and the delay goes off after. And I don't think you can make a partial charge, unless you're a zombie. (Why a shambling, clumsy zombie can do it and a supposedly normal to athletic person can't, I have no idea. If your party has an evil cleric or necromancer, he could have a little offensive line of zombies commanded to ready an action to partial charge the spellcasters/archers/tumblers, otherwise you're apparently out of luck.)

Okay, so you beat me to it. I'm still posting because the idea of held action zombies cracks me up.

 

[Elethiomel]

Readying to charge if someone you're in melee range with takes a 5 foot step back to cast a spell or fire a ranged weapon seems quite pointless, as AFAIK you need to be able to move at least 10' to charge. Readying a 5'-step-and-attack is much better, as it doesn't suffer from the "can I partial charge in 3.5?" or the "but the target is too close to charge!" problems.

 

[Particle_Man]

That's the funny thing about message boards: They don't necessarily go the direction the OP intended.

Does that make the resulting discussion invalid?

Nope. If people want to discuss it and find profit from doing so, I have nothing to say in favour of or against that. I just wanted to clarify my position in case any of them were under the illusion that they were helping the OP.

 

[Nail]

To me, Tumble (and Casting Defensively) are exactly such abilities....

Honest question: Have you found "tumbling past" to be a "nasty ability" in your games? I'm pretty convinced I have not. YMMV.

 

[KarinsDad]

Honest question: Have you found "tumbling past" to be a "nasty ability" in your games? I'm pretty convinced I have not. YMMV.

I have found Fighters to be weaker at higher levels.

Tumble and Cast Defensively as opposed checks would strengthen mid to high level Fighters.

 

[Stalker0]

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