How useful is Hide?

[Grog]

So, in order to use the Hide skill, you have to have either cover or concealment from your target. Let's say you're around a corner from your target, which gives you cover, so you can Hide. Now, when your target walks around the corner, they're in a straight line with you, and you no longer have cover against them. So you can't hide anymore and they automatically see you - no need for a Spot check.

Is my understanding of the rule incorrect? If not, I can't see Hide being useful very often.

 

[Stalker0]

depends on the dms ruling. For example, a lot of times torches are put at intersections and corners, to get the maximum light. But that also creates shadows. Perhaps your just hiding around the corner your also hiding in shadows.

 

[Grog]

Well, for purposes of this discussion, let's assume concealment isn't an issue. By my reading of the rules, you can hide from a creature you have cover against, but as soon as that creature moves so the cover isn't between you and it anymore, it automatically sees you without having to make a Spot check. That makes Hide kinda useless in a lot of situations, IMO.

 

[Zaruthustran]

So, in order to use the Hide skill, you have to have either cover or concealment from your target. Let's say you're around a corner from your target, which gives you cover, so you can Hide. Now, when your target walks around the corner, they're in a straight line with you, and you no longer have cover against them. So you can't hide anymore and they automatically see you - no need for a Spot check.

Is my understanding of the rule incorrect? If not, I can't see Hide being useful very often.

You're correct. It's pretty simple: in order to hide, you need something to hide behind/in.

Easy example: if you hide inside a bathtub behind the shower curtain, and someone tears the curtain down, guess what? you're no longer hidden. Simple.

If you don't understand the utility of Hiding, then I invite you to read up a tactic called "ambush". It's a highly desired tactic wherein the attackers hide, and it's plenty useful and effective. A few pop culture examples of the utility of hiding: the bunker takedown in Return of the Jedi, the massacre in Sin City, the entire Splinter Cell video game, the entire movie Enemy at the Gates.

I mean, what do you expect? If you want some kind of supernatural ability to remain Hidden when someone is looking right at you as you stand there in the open, then you should investigate the (su) ability Hide In Plain Sight.

Also, note the rule "If you're observed, even casually, you can't hide." So if you're already observed, you can't just walk into a shadowy area (20% concealment) and then make a hide check. You have to first move totally out of the other person's view: around a corner, deep into fog (100% concealment), etc.

Also remember that shadows offer zero concealment from a person with darkvision, and that people with low-light vision take double distance before they perceive shadows*.

-z

* Perception doesn't alter the fact that the shadows are there, an important distinction for a Shadowdancer.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Just do like they do in the movies, and run around the corner and hide somewhere where they won't automatically expect you to be.

How many times does the hero (or the badass villain) hide up in the rafters or suspended above the door, then jump out and take somebody unaware?

If you have the movement, run around the corner, Hide, and ready an action to pop 'em one when they come looking for you. They come around, you attack from hiding (and force a spot check from them) and if you beat the opposed skill roll, they didn't see you coming, no matter what kind of cover they just walked around, because you readied to accomplish just that, taking them by suprise. If they move past where you've hidden yourself and don't see you, you might get an AoO out of them as they do anyway. With magic spells or items, you can get away with walking up the wall to hide, or turning invisible, any number of things to help you hide, in addition to the mundane, such as climbing the statue you ducked behind, or bracing between 2 walls and fast climbing, anything to not be quite where they'd expect you to be.

You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

Notice it doesn't say they automatically find you, they just know you're there somewhere. With a high roll (or at least higher than their spot check), you're like a ninja that just seems to vanish in that split second you were out of sight. You only need concealment or cover, not total cover or full concealment to hide, because as soon as you run around that tree or corner, or step into that shadowy area, you're no longer being casually observed because the the text of the Hide skill says you can hide then. Someone highly skilled at being sneaky will know how the blend into wherever they are to best benefit, no need to pull new rules out of the sky to nerf all those skill points they spent on bread and butter survival skills.

 

[Li Shenron]

So, in order to use the Hide skill, you have to have either cover or concealment from your target. Let's say you're around a corner from your target, which gives you cover, so you can Hide. Now, when your target walks around the corner, they're in a straight line with you, and you no longer have cover against them. So you can't hide anymore and they automatically see you - no need for a Spot check.

Is my understanding of the rule incorrect? If not, I can't see Hide being useful very often.

I think you're correct, but it isn't that bad.

[As a side note, note that in that case I would also rule that if you're staying entirely behind the corner (and hence cannot see around it) you basically have full cover and don't even need to roll a Hide check, or alternatively you could peep around a corner (cover, but not full) but have to roll Hide to stay unseen.]

One possibility is that you might choose to make an ambush, so that as soon as the target goes around the corner you MAY have the privilege of a surprise round (while the target doesn't) if the target fails his Spot check.

The other possibility is that you probably have time to move away (or find another hiding spot) if you hear/see the target approaching.

These are two examples of possible ruling (I might not always rule exactly like this anyway...):

Case A: Completely behind the corner

- total cover
- no need to roll Hide so far
- you cannot see the target
- when the target is approaching the corner, you get a Listen check
- when the target passes the corner, roll Hide vs Spot

if Listen succeeds, you get to play in the surprise round
if Spot beats Hide, the target gets to play in the surprise round

which give 4 possible outcomes:

Listen succeeds and Hide beats Spot -> you ambush the target (only you play in the surprise round)
Listen succeeds but Spot beats Hide -> the target notices you at the last moment (both play in the surprise round)
Listen fails and Hide beats Spot -> he is surprised but lose timing (no one plays in the surprise round)
Listen fails and Spot beats Hide -> you are actually more suprised than him (only he plays in the surprise round)

The above is not much of an ambush tactic unless you are very good at hearing: better to be able to see if you want to successfully ambush someone.


Case B: Peeping from behind the corner

- partial cover
- roll Hide vs Spot already at this stage, because there is a chance you're seen
- you can see the target (no need for Listen checks)
- if the target doesn't see you with the first Spot check and walks round the corner, I would either automatically grant you the ambush benefit (a surprise round only for you) or maybe I could allow the target a second Spot check


NOTE: those Spot checks after going around the corner are only for the purpose of determining the surprise round. If you are not going to try an ambush, the target would simply automatically Spot you after a few seconds.

 

[mikebr99]

So, in order to use the Hide skill, you have to have either cover or concealment from your target. Let's say you're around a corner from your target, which gives you cover, so you can Hide. Now, when your target walks around the corner, they're in a straight line with you, and you no longer have cover against them. So you can't hide anymore and they automatically see you - no need for a Spot check.

Is my understanding of the rule incorrect? If not, I can't see Hide being useful very often.

Do you have Complete Adventurer? It expands on the hide skill...

If you're already hiding (thanks to cover of concealment) and you have at least 5 ranks in hide, you can move across an area that does not offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself... You can also use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place. For every 5ft. of open space between you and the target, you take a -5 penalty on your hide check. If Hide succeeds... your target is flat-footed WRT you!

So... Get around that corner, and ready to attack from a hidden position when your target comes around the corner.

Mike

 

[Grog]

One possibility is that you might choose to make an ambush, so that as soon as the target goes around the corner you MAY have the privilege of a surprise round (while the target doesn't) if the target fails his Spot check.

But why would he need a Spot check? As soon as you don't have cover anymore, you can't Hide and thus your target automatically sees you.

The other possibility is that you probably have time to move away (or find another hiding spot) if you hear/see the target approaching.

The problem is that 3.x D&D isn't really equipped to handle this sort of thing. If you're in a 30' x 30' room and there are a couple of waist-high stacks of crates in there, in real life you could keep the cover between you and someone walking around the room by moving at the same time he did. But in 3.x D&D, your target gets his full 30 feet of move before you get to move at all - and thus, he could easily walk around the cover and see you (again, with no need for a Spot check) and you wouldn't be able to move away to prevent this until your turn, which would be too late.

 

[Crothian]

But why would he need a Spot check? As soon as you don't have cover anymore, you can't Hide and thus your target automatically sees you.

But if he failed his spot check before, he doesn't know you are there and is suprised.

 

[taliesin15]

I'm at a loss here to the notion that finding concealment is kind of hard, and thus, Hide is often useless...

in Wilderness areas, there's usually plenty of trees, boulders, bushes, or even under sand if yr in the desert

in Urban areas there's all sorts of buildings, passing caravans, shadows in doorways

in dungeons, there's plenty of places to hide, especially since light sources tend to be spotty

just judging on my latest campaign I've been running, Hide is extremely useful for both PCs and NPCs