D&D 5E How would you do the sword mage in 5e?

[Voadam]

And thats fair, its clearly a popular approach, as 5e has multiple versions (7, at a glance based on my arbitrary choices) doing essentially that. I just think it somewhat misses the mark, at least for me.

It is a very different model than a 4e type swordmage who was absolutely the power equal of any other equivalent level 4e character and did a great job as a specific defender role.

I would say the 4e Swordmage and 4e Fighter are equivalent in combat power and flexibility and utility and pretty much also the same as a 4e wizard in their different combat roles. A 3e eldritch knight in contrast is a bit behind the curve of both fighting and magic, but they are at least ok at both and the utility flexibility of 3e magic is huge, so even being behind the 3e wizard of equal level is far ahead of the straight 3e fighter for flexibility and utility.

 

[Flamestrike]

There are classes and subclasses that can both fight some and cast spells some. There isn't anyone who integrates magic into the very way they fight the way the 4e swordmage did.

Other than greenflame blade, booming blade, sword burst cantrips, plus eldritch smite and thirsting blade on their melee attacks with their magical greatsword, or via War magic every turn with their teleporting magical sword, or via substituting an attack each turn for one of those cantrips?

Other than those guys?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Other than greenflame blade, booming blade, sword burst cantrips, plus eldritch smite and thirsting blade on their melee attacks with their magical greatsword, or via War magic every turn with their teleporting magical sword, or via substituting an attack each turn for one of those cantrips?

Other than those guys?

yes, other than those guys, because we're talking about an entire class build here and not a couple of minor features and tricks.

 

[cbwjm]

I've been looking at the Fabula Ultima RPG, and one of the skills the Tinkerer has is infusions which can change the damage of your weapon when it hits as well as add additional damage of the same type. Sort of like battlemaster damage dice, so you could have a pool of dice that lets change+deal additional damage when you hit a creature. More advanced effects are draining health or inflicting status effects which could also be a good addition to the class as a signature ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

IMO, no 5e class is remotely like it's 4e counterpart.

I get where this comes from, but to me, most classes at least tell the same story as their 4e counterpart, and no current 5e "gish" tells the same story as the 4e Swordmage. None feel like an arcane warrior who was trained up in a longstanding tradition of arcane martial practice.

The Hexblade comes perhaps the closest since it has access to both cantrip and leveled spells that deliver arcane effects with a weapon attack, and stuff like armor of agythis, various teleports, etc, help, which essentially means that rather than a class with multiple subclasses, you've got 1 subclass, and a half dozen or so subs for other classes that play in the same space, just like all the divine subclasses for non-divine classes.

I agree with a point that @DEFCON 1 made before on similar topics that creating any gish or swordmage requires answering an important question: What is the Swordmage's conceptual or archetypical niche in the implied worlds of D&D beyond being a fighter/mage?

Well, a true gish isn't even a fighter/mage, it's a class built from the ground up to be an arcane warrior. That is a conceptual and archetypal niche.

Beyond that, there are several options, but my preferred option is a semi-scholarly character who is a member of an esoteric order of highly specialized mystic warriors.

Spoiler: mechanics

A half-caster with ritual casting and extra attack, is what that translates most naturally into mechanically, with different Esoteric Orders for subclasses at level 3, and at least 3 different Aegis options at level 1 (in the OneDnD model. In the 2014 model you'd flip those), basically mixing the chassis of the Warlock and Monk. Spellcasting at level 2, I guess, to reduce MC cheese. I'd rather have level 1 be spellcasting with ritual casting, mark, and aegis.

You also gain a mark at level 1, and the aegis you choose gives a special benefit to using that mark, with an upgrade aroung level 6-7, and again around level 11.

Aegis format: You gain a special AC calculation. I'd settle for unarmored defense, Int. This is regardless of your Aegis choice. Then, you choose between, let's say:

Aegis of Protection - Your mark causes marked enemies to treat spaces within 10ft of you as difficult terrain, and anytime an enemy within 20 feet of you that is marked by you deals damage to an ally of yours, but not to you, they take damage equal to your intelligence mod. This damage scales up with levels, and you gain a PB/LR teleport and attack reaction at level 7.

Aegis of Pursuit - Your speed increases by 5ft, you can dash as a bonus action, and creatures marked by you have to make a saving throw in order to move away from you? something like that, basically more like the 4e avenger than the 4e swordmage.

Aegis of The Elements - This is a more control focused aegis, that lets you deal elemental damage easily, and you pick an element with a long rest, and your mark gains a secondary effect based on it, and later you get a defensive effect based on the chosen element.

Aegis of The Challenge - maybe an aegis based on forcing enemies individually to focus only on you, with very duelist-focused benefits?


Esoteric Orders:

Order of The Goetic Circle - These swordmages lean more into ritual magic and calling powers to them. That might mean they get a few summon spells, or more spells that fill their body with power like spirity shroud, or it might just mean that they use rituals during rest to put self-buffs in place. Either way they get Magic Circle and Banishing Smite.

Order of The Radiant Dawn - Divine stuff, bursts of radiant damaged, etc

Order of The White Lotus - Focus on swordfighting, bonus spells are all weapon smites and personal buffs, and compelled duel.

Order of The Temple Guardian - draw inspiration from warrior-monks

etc

 

[Voadam]

Well, a true gish isn't even a fighter/mage,

Actually, a true gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Magic-User (see the lower right corner text below sergeants).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Actually, a true gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Magic-User (see the lower right corner text below sergeants).

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yeah legacy and tradition aren't things I really care about. The discussion is very clearly about the modern gish, not the origin of the word.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

By some peoples argument, we could add a single cantrip which does a bit of radiant damage on a weapon strike and we can remove the paladin class!

 

[cbwjm]

Not a fan of the term gish, we could have had the much cooler sounding name zerth for a fighter/mage but people took gish and ran with it.

 

[Voadam]

yeah legacy and tradition aren't things I really care about. The discussion is very clearly about the modern gish, not the origin of the word.

I would say the multiclass fighter wizard type is still part of the modern discussion.

3e had multiclass eldritch knights and spellswords in Sword & Fist.

3.5 made the eldritch knight part of the DMG and SRD so they were an established part of the game before there were 3.5 hexblades as a full class. Same thing in Pathfinder with a core multiclass eldritch knight before there was a Pathfinder magus full class.

In 4e you had multiclass warrior wizards in core (I played one) well before the swordmage came out in the FR releases. A 4e ranger multiclassing into paragon wizard is decent. Twin striking with a quarterstaff and using ranger strike and evasion powers is a great base for a warrior with some wizard powers.

5e has a lot of multiclass warrior wizard type options particularly if you consider subclasses as part of that tradition.