How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[Artoomis]

A little too strongly worded, perhaps. I wouldn't say you are the one that is wrong, but rather that my interpretation is different from yours.

What I read in the description, is that Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability that allows the use of the Hide skill without anything to hide behind. My interpretation is that it's a standard action.

This one is debatable, as I noted above. Both positions have been clearly stated, so a DM should make his or her own choice properly eductated on the issue.

HiPS obviates the need for cover, so it would work against someone with darkvision, IMO.

Andargor

I disagree on the last point.

The ONLY reason darkvision could possibly prevent you from hiding is if someone with darkvision sees right into shadows, so that, effectively, there are no shadows. No shadows = no hiding for a Shadowdancer.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Why is darkvision an issue? The ability only states that the shadowdancer must be within 10' of a shadow of some sort. It doesn't mention the size of the shadow.

Is the shadowdancer actually hiding in the shadow (like in 2ed), or is being within 10' of one all that is required for their supernatural ability to be used?

IMC, I treat HipS as a move equivalent action that someone needs to succeed at a spot check or have blindsight/sense or tremorsence to "see" the shadowdancer.

 

[Artoomis]

Double Post.

Replaced with:

I agree with Caliban.

 

[andargor]

Looks like I was wrong about the standard action. It's a move action. From the FAQ:

The shadowdancer’s hide in plain sight ability is a
supernatural ability, so by definition it takes a standard
action to hide in plain sight, right? The monk’s speed
becomes a supernatural ability at 9th level. Does a monk
have to spend a standard action to move greater than 50
feet in one action?

Though supernatural abilities usually require a standard
action to use, a few of them do not. Hide in plain sight, for
example, works just like any other use of the Hide skill, so you
use it as a move action or as part of a move action.
A monk’s supernatural speed works anytime the monk
moves. In general, whenever a supernatural ability changes the
way one of the user’s actions works, it works just like the
action it modifies.

On the darkvision issue, there are examples in the FAQ of a party using the Hide skill against Trolls, which have darkvision. I still believe that HiPS and plain Hide can be used against creatures with darkvision.

Andargor

 

[Caliban]

On the darkvision issue, there are examples in the FAQ of a party using the Hide skill against Trolls, which have darkvision. I still believe that HiPS and plain Hide can be used against creatures with darkvision.

Andargor

You can hide from someone with darkvision if you are using Cover to hide (i.e. duck behind a tree or other object).

The 3.5 PHB on page 165 specifically states: "A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

Normal use of the Hide definitely doesn't work, and I don't believe that HiPS works either.

 

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Caliban
It's a not unreasonable arguement that attempting to hide in shadows simply does not work against someone with darkvision, since there are no shadows as far as they are concerned.

The odd thing about this interpretation is that it implies (to me at least) that a shadowdancer with darkvision could never use HiPS if it was based on the perception of shadows - instead of the existance of shadows. So you could never have a dwarven (half-orc, etc.) shadowdancer.

I believe the description of HiPS overrules the "A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." rule. YMMV.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I believe the description of HiPS overrules the "A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." rule. YMMV.

Why? There is absolutely nothing in the description of HiPS that overrules hiding with regards to darkvision. The only thing it allows you to do is hide while you are being observed, which you normally cannot do. All other rules still apply. Also, the shadowdancer needs to be within 10 ft. of a shadow other than her own.

 

[Caliban]

The odd thing about this interpretation is that it implies (to me at least) that a shadowdancer with darkvision could never use HiPS if it was based on the perception of shadows - instead of the existance of shadows. So you could never have a dwarven (half-orc, etc.) shadowdancer.

Nah, it depends on whether or not the person observing you can see the shadow. The dwarven shadow dancer knows where the shadows are, because his darkvision kicks in for the shadowy areas. Whether or not he can see in the shadow, he can hide in it.

 

[Abraxas]

Why? There is absolutely nothing in the description of HiPS that overrules hiding with regards to darkvision. The only thing it allows you to do is hide while you are being observed, which you normally cannot do. All other rules still apply. Also, the shadowdancer needs to be within 10 ft. of a shadow other than her own.

I could just turn this around - there is nothing in the description of darkvision that allows you to negate the shadowdancer's ability to hide while being observed.

The Shadowdancer doesn't need the concealment of the shadows to hide. The shadowdancer's HiPS ability allows her to hide on a featureless brightly lit plane while being observed as long as she is within 10ft of a shadow (other than her own). The HiPS ability negates the need for concealment so a visual ability to pierce the unnecessary concealment should have no effect on HiPS.

 

[Caliban]

I could just turn this around - there is nothing in the description of darkvision that allows you to negate the shadowdancer's ability to hide while being observed.

The Shadowdancer doesn't need the concealment of the shadows to hide. The shadowdancer's HiPS ability allows her to hide on a featureless brightly lit plane while being observed as long as she is within 10ft of a shadow (other than her own). The HiPS ability negates the need for concealment so a visual ability to pierce the unnecessary concealment should have no effect on HiPS.

I don't see how it negats the need for concealment, to be honest. They still need a shadow around before they can hide, after all.

Unfortunately the rules don't really explain what the shadow has to do with their hiding ability, other than being required. (And since their ability doesn't work without the shadow, if someone can't see the shadow their ability doesn't work for that person. That's what makes the most sense to me at any rate.)

I usually envision it as the shadow wrapping around them, or they seem to sink into a piece of the shadow that stretches in their direction.