How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[RangerWickett]

All I know is that I had a high-level shadowdancer (Rogue 9/Ranger 1/Assassin 10/Shadowdancer 1) go up against my 13th level party, and a simple mistake on my part ended up making him a lot weaker than I was envisioning.

Basically, they fought him in a forest, with him spider-climbing through the trees, protected with a +45 Hide check and hide in plain sight. Every round he thought it safe, he'd pop off a poisoned arrow with a +16 bonus, then hide (even with the -20 penalty, he still had a +25 bonus). Meanwhile, his ghost cohort and ghostly followers kept the group busy (a 15th level rogue ghost who specializes in the longbow and shoots at PCs that have been grappled by swarms of minion ghosts is pretty impressive).

Well, the PCs weren't helpless, though. They'd researched in advance a special 6th level light spell that eliminates all shadows in a 200-ft. area. No shadows at all. So this got rid of the Shadowdancer's ability to hide in plain sight for three turns and death attack the PCs, but he could still snipe.

Unfortunately, at one point I got a little over-eager. When the party psion identified the source of spiritual energy that was fueling all the ghosts (the assassin's soul-stealing sword), the group attacked that area. One warrior PC actually rushed in, and I figured the assassin wanted to scare the group, so he drops out of a tree (free action) and takes three sneak attacks on the warrior, dealing something insane like 6d6+21 from the sword, and +24d6 from the sneak attack, for a total of over 120 points of damage, plus poison.

Now, I know the assassin's gonna get beaten up because of this, but I figure he's got 170 hit points, so he can take a round of punishment from the PCs (and he could dimension door away the next round). Well, he fails a will save against Hold Person. D'oh. In hindsight I should've just handwaved that a high-level character would have known to have a ring of freedom of movement, even if I'd forgotten to give him one, but I let him go down.

In the next round, the poor bastard is harmed, blasted with a couple searing rays, beaten up by the raging barbarian he nearly killed, and has a sword thrown through him. (And he still had 2 hit points!)

Still, it has taught me two things. One, Shadowdancers should never bother attacking if the situation is not optimal for them; they can always just run away and fight later when their opponents' defenses are down. And two, high level characters really really need rings of freedom of movement.

 

[FireLance]

My only problem with this is, if the shadowdancer isn't using the shadow in some fashion, why is it even required?

Like Abraxus said, it's just a way of limiting the SD's ability. Think of it as a Focus component, although Supernatural abilities usually don't have Foci.

That said, I find that clause to be a little vague. Surely as long as there is *something* within 10 feet, there's going to be *some* kind of shadow. There's not even the constraint that the shadow must be big enough for the SD to hide in (not in the SRD, at any rate).

I might decide to interpret it to mean that the SD can HiPS as long as she is within 10 feet of a 5-foot square with shadowy illumination. This means a SD can skirt the edges of a patch of bright light, but coming too close to the center would negate her ability.

And, the Darkvision thing. My ruling is that Darkvision negates concealment due to darkness to the limit of its range. Normally, this prevents a creature from hiding unless it is invisible, has cover, or has concealment from another source (e.g. fog). However, since a SD can Hide without needing concealment, she can HiPS even from a creature with Darkvision.

 

[Caliban]

Like Abraxus said, it's just a way of limiting the SD's ability. Think of it as a Focus component, although Supernatural abilities usually don't have Foci.

Except that it doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about shadows "powering" their ability. It doesn't say anything about it being a focus or anything else.

This explanation requires a pretty big leap of logic to work.

I'm just saying that if they need a shadow nearby to be able to hide, the most likely reason is that they are somehow using the shadow to hide.

 

[FireLance]

Except that it doesn't say that. It doesn't say anything about shadows "powering" their ability. It doesn't say anything about it being a focus or anything else.

This explanation requires a pretty big leap of logic to work.

I'm just saying that if they need a shadow nearby to be able to hide, the most likely reason is that they are somehow using the shadow to hide.

Going strictly the SRD (my DMG is at home), the rule doesn't say that the SD has to hide in a shadow, either. I suppose the last line, "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow" implies that, although that kind of defeats the purpose of HiPS (if you're in an area of shadowy illumination, you have concealment and don't need HiPS to Hide, anyway).

It also raises questions like: if the shadow is not moving (the shadow of a rock, maybe) can the SD move and remain hidden? If the shadow is very small (the shadow of a small rock, maybe) does that "give away" her location to a smart opponent who knows he's fighting a shadowdancer? If he's invisible (so he casts no shadow) and thwacks the only other (very small) shadow in the area with his mace, does he automatically hit?

 

[Abraxas]

See, this is the point of our disagreement - the ability also says the SD doesn't need anything to hide behind and doesn't actually have to be in the shadow. So there is no leap of logic (IMO).

Its an on/off effect - are there shadows within 10 ft?
Yes - HiPS works
No - HiPS doesn't work
The shadows don't do anything according to the description but this . . . so in my view its a pretty big leap of logic to assume the SD pulls the shadows around herself or somehow generates concealment around herself with them.

We agree to disagree

 

[Artoomis]

See, this is the point of our disagreement - the ability also says the SD doesn't need anything to hide behind and doesn't actually have to be in the shadow. So there is no leap of logic (IMO).

Its an on/off effect - are there shadows within 10 ft?
Yes - HiPS works
No - HiPS doesn't work
The shadows don't do anything according to the description but this . . . so in my view its a pretty big leap of logic to assume the SD pulls the shadows around herself or somehow generates concealment around herself with them.

We agree to disagree

Okay - but from the point of view of the character with darkvision, there are NO shadows to use. Besides, the PHB quite clearly say you CANNOT hide from someone with darkvision without cover.

Now what I don't know is how a Shadowdancer with darkvision can see shadows to know they are there and thus they can hide. I guess they can turn the darkvision on and off at will or something. It does not really have to make sense, I guess.

The thing to remember about HiPS is that it is NOT invisibility, it IS using the Hide skill, albeit supernaturally, and is using it with shadows (we don't really know exactly how). Someone with darkvision gets automatic success vs. someone hiding using shadows only (as opposed to using cover to hide), thus you cannot use HiPS vs. someone with darkvision.

 

[Abraxas]

Couple of things

Darkvision is black and white only. When a creature with DV looks at something in shadow what does he see? He sees it as a black and white image. Knowing this he would therefore perceive the shadow even though he can see through it. Shadows do exist for a creature with darkvision, they just don't stop them from seeing clearly in black and white.

The HiPS ability states you don't need anything to hide behind and you don't actually have to be in shadow - so how exactly does darkvision negate the ability to use HiPS?

Abilities like this aren't based on the perception of others - Analogy: If I cast protection from evil - and the insane chaotic evil cultist believes completely that he is good - it still works against him - even though he can't and doesn't perceive himself as evil.

The "creatures with darkvision can't perceive shadows" argument just doesn't convince me - given the HiPS ability to negate the need for cover/concealment.

To-mā-to To-mă-to

I do remember that HiPS is not invisibility - if it was the spot check would be much higher

We've reached an impasse - restating the same bits - but no worries. Maybe Skip will discuss this in the Rule of the Game column and we'll have our answer (although Monte Cook already stated that that darkvision does not negate the HiPS ability).

 

[Artoomis]

...Darkvision is black and white only. When a creature with DV looks at something in shadow what does he see? He sees it as a black and white image. Knowing this he would therefore perceive the shadow even though he can see through it. Shadows do exist for a creature with darkvision, they just don't stop them from seeing clearly in black and white...

Works for me!

The HiPS ability states you don't need anything to hide behind and you don't actually have to be in shadow - so how exactly does darkvision negate the ability to use HiPS?...
The "creatures with darkvision can't perceive shadows" argument just doesn't convince me - given the HiPS ability to negate the need for cover/concealment...

Remember the HiPS ability still uses your Hide Skill. Somehow you use the shadow to hide - maybe the shadow is magically altered to hide you; maybe the viewers perceptions are altered to make you blend in with the shadow. I don't know, that's not clear at all. What is clear is that you are still using your hide skill in plain view without using cover, only if a shadow is within 10'. That's the key point, really - you are using your hide skill.

Thus darkvision reveals you because, essentially, the opposed check is an automatic success for the character with darkvision unless you are behind cover. In this case, you are certainly not behind cover, but are hidden by the shadow somehow.

If the HiPS let you get around actually having to use the Hide skill I'd be on your side all the way!

((Note that HiPS does not negate the need for cover - it ONLY lets you get around needing cover to hide in plain site IF you are within 10' of a shadow (not your own).))

 

[Abraxas]

PH pg 152 "a shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision."

PH pg 165 "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."​

The HiPS negates the need for

cover ("a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind")

or

concealment (PH pg 152 "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment." and "You can use concealment to make a Hide check." Since you can be anywhere within 10' of a non-personal shadow you aren't getting concealment from it according to the rules on Concealment."

Since HiPS negates both of these requirements within 10' of a non-personal shadow and darkvision lists cover OR invisiblity - the SD can go ahead and use their hide skill.

How does the hidee's inability to see the shadow (even though I think they can still perceive it) stop the hider's HiPS ability from working? The shadow exists regardless of the hidee's ability to see it. Can a blind shadowdancer within 10' of a shadow still HiPS? With your darkvision interpretation she can't see the shadow and therefore can't HiPS.

Heres something I just thought of - if a creature with darkvision can't see shadows - Shadows (the monster) just got a whole lot more dangerous - they would be effectively invisible to poor dwarven clerics

It just makes sense to me that HiPS works even if you are hiding from someone with darkvision.

(this is my shadow font so the dwarves can't read it)

 

[Camarath]

Okay - but from the point of view of the character with darkvision, there are NO shadows to use. Besides, the PHB quite clearly say you CANNOT hide from someone with darkvision without cover.

I believe that the rules state that "A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision." thus if one had concealment from a non-"shadowy area or darkness" source such as the Blur spell one could still use Hide against foes with Darkvision. Also if one did not need concealment or cover to use Hide the prohabition against shadowy areas or darkness not providing concealment would be meaningless.

((Note that HiPS does not negate the need for cover - it ONLY lets you get around needing cover to hide in plain site IF you are within 10' of a shadow (not your own).))

So the HiPS explicitly allows you to use the Hide skill if you are with in 10' of a shadow a condition which does not provide either cover or concealment thus wouldn't the ability allow you to use the Hide skill with out needing cover or concealment if you are with in 10' of a shadow. And since Darkvision only preculdes the concealment gained from shadowy areas or darkness which you do not need why would it prevent the use of the HiPS ability?