How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[Artoomis]

Okay then, for those who vote against concealment as I presenmteed the issue, how do you explain that he still needs to use his Hide skill?

At least my way there is a plausible (if a stretch) explanation for why he still needs to use his Hide skill.

Your way, I think the ability should just turn him, invisible. That would make more sense.

 

[Gnimish88]

If the sage rules that darkvision does defeat HiPS I will play by that rule in the game where I do not DM and the DM plays by Official rules only (well thats not entirely true - he does have 3 houserules).

In the game I DM I will houserule it my way.

That is what I thought. My question is why? Do you feel HiPS it is too overpowered if you don't have darkvision negate it?

 

[LordAO]

Okay then, for those who vote against concealment as I presenmteed the issue, how do you explain that he still needs to use his Hide skill?

At least my way there is a plausible (if a stretch) explanation for why he still needs to use his Hide skill.

Your way, I think the ability should just turn him, invisible. That would make more sense.

I don't think trying to explain how the ability works in metaphysical terms is at all helpful or productive. How does a Wizard create fireballs from thin air? How does a priest heal injuries with a touch? Like you said before "It's magic." And like magic, it takes training and skill to use.

I liek the fact that it requires a hide check to use. Not only because of game balance reasons, but also because it makes the hide skill still important to a shadowdancer. Whether you want to explain that as using the Shadow's energy to power a partial invisibility spell, wrapping himself in shadows to grant himself concealment, or whatever else, the game mechanics of it are the same (and Darkvision doesn't outright defeat it).

I admit, the ability is somewhat strange. It helps to just not try and think about how it works. FYI I have toyed with changing the ability in my game. I was going to have the ability not be restricted to being within 10 feet of any shadow, but rather making it so that it only works in areas of poor illumination (so no walking around virtually invisible in a city market in broad daylight just because the people and objects around you have shadows).

 

[Abraxas]

You may have me confused with someone else.

I believe that currently, the RAW support my view that Darkvision does not negate the HiPS ability.

If the sage rules that this is not true, I will houserule it to be true in my games. Allowing darkvision to negate the HiPS ability makes HiPS to weak IMO.

 

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Artoomis
Okay then, for those who vote against concealment as I presenmteed the issue, how do you explain that he still needs to use his Hide skill?

Because the ability is Hide in Plain Sight
In order to hide you must use the hide skill.
Really, it works because its magic.

Why don't you gain all the abilities of a creature you polymorph into? Cause thats the way the spell was written.
Its a balance issue. Allowing darkvision to negate HiPS makes HiPS pretty worthless.

 

[FireLance]

Okay then, for those who vote against concealment as I presenmteed the issue, how do you explain that he still needs to use his Hide skill?

At least my way there is a plausible (if a stretch) explanation for why he still needs to use his Hide skill.

Your way, I think the ability should just turn him, invisible. That would make more sense.

Note that even invisibility is not a fool-proof means of avoiding detection. According to the description of the Hide skill, it grants a +40 bonus to Hide checks if you are immobile, and a +20 bonus to Hide checks if you are moving. An invisible character with a high Hide modifier is more difficult to notice than an invisible character with a low Hide modifier. Skill does count.

HiPS is not as good as invisibility. It enhances your ability to hide, but by enabling you to do so while being observed and doing away with the need for cover or concealment instead of giving a straight bonus to your Hide check.

At a more mundane level, think of it like Combat Reflexes, or Uncanny Dodge. All these abilities allow you to do something you would not normally be able to do: make AOOs while flat-footed, or add your Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed, etc. However, they don't give you anything more than the opportunity. If your BAB is low or your Dex bonus is zero in the first place, they aren't that useful. Same with HiPS. It allows you to hide when you normally wouldn't be able to, but it doesn't make it any easier for you.

 

[Camarath]

Okay then, for those who vote against concealment as I presenmteed the issue, how do you explain that he still needs to use his Hide skill?

At least my way there is a plausible (if a stretch) explanation for why he still needs to use his Hide skill.

Your way, I think the ability should just turn him, invisible. That would make more sense.

That sounds odd to me. Are you suggesting that the same be done for the Ranger ability? Should Rangers be Invisible in natural terrain because he can Hide in natural terrain without cover or concealment and while being observed?

IMO being Invisible is very different from being able to use the Hide skill without cover or concealment and while being observed. Invisiblity grants total concealment even if one is spotted, the Hide skill does not. Invisiblity grants a +20 on Hide checks, the Hide skill does not. I believe that gaining Invisiblity is far more powerful than gaining the ability to use the Hide skill without cover or concealment and while being observed.

 

[Gnimish88]

You may have me confused with someone else.

I believe that currently, the RAW support my view that Darkvision does not negate the HiPS ability.

If the sage rules that this is not true, I will houserule it to be true in my games. Allowing darkvision to negate the HiPS ability makes HiPS to weak IMO.

oops, sorry. Was reading the thread and it all started to blend before my eyes. Such is the dangers of skimming...

I do wonder why they didn't spell it out better in 3.5 though, seems like it would have been something screaming for clarification.

 

[Gnimish88]

Have been asked to post this question by a friend who is having difficulties posting at the moment (for the record, my personal opinion is No):

"Suppose a SD is in an unlit chamber with an opponent who has darkvision.
Can the SD use his HiPS? The whole chamber is essentially a shadow (from the SD's POV)."

 

[Rallets Artois]

The ruling on HIPS in the game I play in was argued quite heatedly. There was no way my shadowdancer was going to lose his HIPS ability.

Shadows are the absence of light in our game, in varing degrees. so if you are in a dark room with no light then you are in 100% shadow, the sun can be shining strongly outside, its just the roof and walls create a very strong shadow.

Also in our game, to get round the darkvison problem, the rulling is that the shadowdancer is blending into shadows (even at a max of 10 foot away)
the shadows have to be large enough to hide in he becomes, visually at least, part of the shadow itself. Blindsight negates this ability of course.

Just because a person does not see shadows does not mean they dont exist. It would mean that a shadowdancer couldnt shadowstep? I dont think so. I think you need to look not just at the wording but also the spirit of the game.

finally, and i'm sure its been said before but i skimmed a lot, a shadowdancer gets darkvison, if he cant see shadows then how is he going to know where to hide?