How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[Artoomis]

Thanks, Caliban.

I look forward to seeing his answer.

 

[Camarath]

It eliminates the need for cover to duck behind to hide while being observed. It does NOT eliminate the need for concealment - that need is presumably met by having shadows within 10' of you (how? - we don't know - it';s magic!)

Having shadows within 10' does not in any way grant concealment and yet HiPS states that you can use the Hide skill in that situation. If you are asserting that being within 10' of shadows grants concealment please substantiate that claim.

Disagree - HiPS only eliminates the need for cover, not for concelament. Somehow, one must presume, being within 10' of a shadow magically gives you the concealment you need to use you hide skill. Now HERE is where it gets tricky:

Or one could assume that since the ability allows one to hide in a situation that grants neither cover or concealment the ability allows one to hide with out cover or concealment in that situation.

1. Is the shadow actually providing the concealment, so that the Shadowdancer is somehow, magically, effectively within the shadow so that he may use his Hide skill?

or

2. Is the requirement for concelment somehow magically met using the nearby shadow for power to fuel it - in other words, the Shadowdancer is given a virtual Robe of Blending (with no 10% bonus) so that, if he succeeds in his Hide check, he blends in and is suddenly hidden?

These are not the only options. Another option is that one does not need concelment when using HiPS. I think it far-fetched to assume that since one must have concelment and HiPS allows one to hide in a situation which does not grant concelment then HiPS somehow grants concelment with out of the other normal benefits of concelment so that one can hide. It is much more reasonable IMO that the ability removes the requirement for concelment rather than granting concelment without making mention of the fact that it does so.

Yes, he's not relying on shadowy areas to provide the concealment he needs to hide. While he may be partially relying on shadows, he's more relying on natural terrain, and trying to figure out how much he's relying on shadows is just simply beyond the scope of the D&D rules set.

So what the rules clearly state that to hide with in 60ft of a creature with Darkvision one must have cover or be invisible.

 

[Artoomis]

...So what the rules clearly state that to hide with in 60ft of a creature with Darkvision one must have cover or be invisible.

In context, please, in context.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

 

[Camarath]

In context, please, in context.

I know it should not apply to the Ranger's ability because he does not need cover or concealment to hide in natural terrain and that provision deals with concealment granted by darkness. But I do not think it should apply to the Shadowdancer's ability either because the Shadowdancer does not have to have concealment due to darkness or even to be in shadows to use its ability it can clearly be out side of the darkness (but with in 10ft) and still be able to hide.

 

[Gnimish88]

Seems what this discussion needs is some anecdotes.

In my own experience playing a Shadowdancer, the GM justified HiPS by stating that the shadow within 10' gave the character the necessary connection to the demi-plane of shadow, which connects to the prime material plane where ever there are shadows. Count it as working like invisibility which requires a shadow to be within 10' and a successful hide check to activate it. It made the character an excellent scout as long as there was SOME kind of light sources in use and gave him a few more sneak attacks then would normally have been allowed, but he still tended to lag behind the wizard and the fighter in terms of ability to deal out damage. Overall, this seemed a pretty balanced way to run it and he didn't steal the spotlight too much, except for scouting. One thing to bear in mind, many darkvision users may despense with light sources. I remember undead being a real problem for him, no light sources used and no vulnrability to sneak attacks.

Anyone else have any stories with how HiPS was used in play and how it effected the game?

 

[LordAO]

Okay - but from the point of view of the character with darkvision, there are NO shadows to use. Besides, the PHB quite clearly say you CANNOT hide from someone with darkvision without cover.

Rules of individual feats and abilities override general rules like this. The Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight clearly states that the character can use the hide skill even while being observed. Darkvision is no exception.

Look at it this way. Why do you suppose the general rule that somebody can't hide from someone with darkvision (without cover) exists? Well, there are really only two ways to hide without cover. Hiding in an area of poor illumination, or using camoflauge. Now, obviously hiding in an area of poor illumination isn't going to help against somebody with darkvision. Hence the reason why that rule exists.

Now, on the other hand, camoflauge would still be effective. Camoflauge works even if you can be seen, because your features blend in to match your surroundings. This is why the Ranger's camoflauge ability allows you to hide without cover. And this is why such an ability would work even aginst darkvision. Sure, they can SEE you, but they don't NOTICE you. Normally, one needs cover to hide against darkvision, but the Ranger's camoflauge ability removes that requirement.

The Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is similar. Regardless of how it metaphysically works, it allows you to hide EVEN WHILE BEING OBSERVED. Again, I affirm that nothing anywhere ever states that darkvision is an exception to this. Clearly, the Shadowdancers ability to Hide in Plain Sight is more powerful than the generic use of the hide skill. And using darkvision to spot someone is most certainly counts as observation, which the HiPS ability can defeat.

Quote the main book's hide vs darkvision rule all you want. It simply doesn't apply here. When talking about a spell, feat, or special ability, its rules are the ones that count. Yeah, the normal rules say that when you try and disarm somebody that you provoke an attack of opportunity. Yet, when you use the Improved Disarm feat, it states that you do not provoke. Which rule do you use? Obviously, you use the feat's. Yes, the normal rules say you can't hide from darkvision without cover. Yet, the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability says you can hide even while beign observed (no exception ever being given for one kind of observation over another).

So again I ask, which rule do you use?

 

[Abraxas]

Originally posted by Artoomis
Nope. It eliminates the need for cover to duck behind to hide while being observed. It does NOT eliminate the need for concealment - that need is presumably met by having shadows within 10' of you (how? - we don't know - it';s magic!)

This is where I believe you are making the huge leap of logic.
If the HiPS ability said the SD had to be in an area of shadows and could then hide while being observed I would agree with you. It doesn't say this, it does say you have to be within 10' of a non-personal shadow. Being within 10 feet of a shadow does not meet the definition of concealment - therefore no concealment is required. The SD can just hide. Like you said - how? - we don't know - it's magic!

Can't wait to see if the sage answers.

 

[Sejs]

Short, sweet, to the point:

Okay - but from the point of view of the character with darkvision, there are NO shadows to use.

Just because you can see thru them, doesn't mean that they're not there.

Edit for clairity: Just because someone with darkvision can see thru darkness/shadows within the range of their darkvision does not mean that the same shadows they can see thru are not present. Shadows are an obstruction of light, and their existance in an area has nothing to do with someone's ability to see thru them.

The ability states that a Shadowdancer must be within 10' of a shadow, it does not state that the Shadowdancer must be within 10' of something that obscures vision to someone trying to observe them.

 

[Gnimish88]

This is where I believe you are making the huge leap of logic.
If the HiPS ability said the SD had to be in an area of shadows and could then hide while being observed I would agree with you. It doesn't say this, it does say you have to be within 10' of a non-personal shadow. Being within 10 feet of a shadow does not meet the definition of concealment - therefore no concealment is required. The SD can just hide. Like you said - how? - we don't know - it's magic!

Can't wait to see if the sage answers.

Out of curiousity, what will you do if the Sage's ruling catagorically disagrees with your opinion? I suppose if you are not a GM it is a moot point, but if you are, will you house rule it differently?

 

[Abraxas]

If the sage rules that darkvision does defeat HiPS I will play by that rule in the game where I do not DM and the DM plays by Official rules only (well thats not entirely true - he does have 3 houserules).

In the game I DM I will houserule it my way.