How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[Camarath]

PH pg 165 "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

I had not seen this but I would put forth that it is in reference to the use of Hide skill because of the Darkness talked about in the preceding sentence and section. I would also put forth that the HiPS, Hide skill, and Concealment rules are all primary rule sources in this case and should take precedence over the Exploration: Vision and Light rules.

 

[Abraxas]

I agree - I only listed it as one of the requirements to hide from someone with DV and show how HiPS negates those requirements.​

I believe we are on the same side in this ​

 

[Artoomis]

I believe that the rules state that "A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision." ...

Right - my statement was overly broad and meant to be taken only in the context of shadows.

So the HiPS explicitly allows you to use the Hide skill if you are with in 10' of a shadow a condition which does not provide either cover or concealment thus wouldn't the ability allow you to use the Hide skill with out needing cover or concealment if you are with in 10' of a shadow. And since Darkvision only preculdes the concealment gained from shadowy areas or darkness which you do not need why would it prevent the use of the HiPS ability?

Because HiPS does not in any way even suggest it might be giving you cover, or the equivalent of cover. Instead it suggests that somehow you get to hide using a shadow that is up to 10' away.

Thus darkvision would trump HiPS.

Negating the need for cover is not the same as giving you cover.

 

[Camarath]

Because HiPS does not in any way even suggest it might be giving you cover, or the equivalent of cover. Instead it suggests that somehow you get to hide using a shadow that is up to 10' away.

Thus darkvision would trump HiPS.

Negating the need for cover is not the same as giving you cover.

Why do you need cover to Hide if HiPS negates the need for cover and concealment?

 

[Artoomis]

Why do you need cover to Hide if HiPS negates the need for cover and concealment?

You don't. You do, however, need cover to hide from darkvision if you are using shadows to provide the concelment you need to hide.

Hide:

...If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went...

You need cover to duck behind and hide if you are being obvserved. HiPS negates the need for cover in that instance, but does not actually provide cover.
Vision and Light:

...In an area of shadowy illumination, a character ... can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

...

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover...

You need cover to hide from darkvision. HiPS does not give you cover. Ergo, darkvision trumps HiPS (if you are within 60').

No cover, no hiding from darkvision.

It's a huge leap in logic to think that just because you do not need cover to HiPS, that you also get the effects of having cover to hide you from darkvision.

All the above assumes we are talking of shadows only.

 

[Caliban]

I've sent an e-mail to the Sage, I'll post here if I get a response.

 

[Artoomis]

I've sent an e-mail to the Sage, I'll post here if I get a response.

Can you post how you phrased the question? Frankly, without re-reading all the rules inovled, I would have said that HiPS hides you from darkvision if someone asked me without pointing me to all the relevant rules.

 

[Camarath]

You need cover to duck behind and hide if you are being obvserved. HiPS negates the need for cover in that instance, but does not actually provide cover.
Vision and Light:

HiPS lets you Hide while being obvserved and in a situation (within 10' of a shadow) that does not give either cover or concealment. I think what you are saying is that you can only hide within 10' of a shadow if you actually have cover or concealment.

You need cover to hide from darkvision. HiPS does not give you cover. Ergo, darkvision trumps HiPS (if you are within 60').

No cover, no hiding from darkvision.

It's a huge leap in logic to think that just because you do not need cover to HiPS, that you also get the effects of having cover to hide you from darkvision.

All the above assumes we are talking of shadows only.

The reason why you can not Hide from darkvision using the concealment granted by a shadowy area or darkness is because darkvision negates that concealment and you must have cover or concealment to use the hide skill. HiPS eleiminates that need you do not need cover or concealment in any way to hide if you meet HiPS conditions. The Vision and Light quote is superceded by the Concealment rules and the Hide rules which are in turn superceded by the HiPS rules as per WoTC's primary rules have precedence rule. I do not believe that Vision and Light quote adds an additional requirement for if you want to hide from a creature with darkvision. I believe that it is a simplification of the fact that you normally need cover or concealment to hide and since darkness does not give one concealment vs creatures with darkvision one must have cover to hide from them unless one has concealment from another source or for some reason does not need cover or concealment to hide such as the HiPS ability.

Can a Ranger Hide with in 60ft of a creature with Darkvision while in natural terrain if he does not have cover?

 

[Caliban]

Can you post how you phrased the question? Frankly, without re-reading all the rules inovled, I would have said that HiPS hides you from darkvision if someone asked me without pointing me to all the relevant rules.

How does Darkvision interact with the Hide in Plain Sight ability of the Shadowdancer?

The PHB (page 165) states that you can't hide within 60 feet of somone with darkvision unless you have cover, or are invisible, because they can see normally in dark areas.

The Hide in Plain Sight ability lets you hide (even while being observed) as long as you are within 10' of a shadow.

Can the Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight from somone who has Darkvision? (And if they can, why is the shadow required?)

 

[Artoomis]

HiPS lets you Hide while being obvserved and in a situation (within 10' of a shadow) that does not give either cover or concealment. What you are saying is that you can only hide within 10' of a shadow if you actually have cover or concealment.

Only if you have darkvision and can thus pierce the shadows with your vision.

The reason why you can not Hide from darkvision using the concealment granted by a shadowy area or darkness is because darkvision negates that concealment and you must have cover or concealment to use the hide skill HiPS eliminates that need you do not need cover or concealment in any way to hide if you meet HiPS conditions. .

Nope. It eliminates the need for cover to duck behind to hide while being observed. It does NOT eliminate the need for concealment - that need is presumably met by having shadows within 10' of you (how? - we don't know - it';s magic!)

The Vision and Light quote is superceded by the Concealment rules and the Hide rules which are in turn superceded by the HiPS rules as per WoTC's primary rules have precedence rule. I do not believe that Vision and Light quote adds an additional requirement for if you want to hide from a creature with darkvision. I believe that it is a simplification of the fact that you normally need cover or concealment to hide and since darkness does not give one concealment vs creatures with darkvision one must have cover to hide from them unless one has concealment from another source

Agreed

or for some reason does not need cover or concealment to hide such as the HiPS ability.

Disagree - HiPS only eliminates the need for cover, not for concelament. Somehow, one must presume, being within 10' of a shadow magically gives you the concealment you need to use you hide skill. Now HERE is where it gets tricky:

1. Is the shadow actually providing the concealment, so that the Shadowdancer is somehow, magically, effectively within the shadow so that he may use his Hide skill?

or

2. Is the requirement for concelment somehow magically met using the nearby shadow for power to fuel it - in other words, the Shadowdancer is given a virtual Robe of Blending (with no 10% bonus) so that, if he succeeds in his Hide check, he blends in and is suddenly hidden?

I think #1 makes more sense.

Can a Ranger Hide with in 60ft of a creature with Darkvision while in natural terrain if he does not have cover?

Yes, he's not relying on shadowy areas to provide the concealment he needs to hide. While he may be partially relying on shadows, he's more relying on natural terrain, and trying to figure out how much he's relying on shadows is just simply beyond the scope of the D&D rules set.