How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

[Otterscrubber]

Let's break this down. In order to use the Hide ability at all there are 2 guidelines that must exist:

1)You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

2)If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

All Hide in Plain Sight does is remove #2 from the equation. You must still have cover/concealment in order to do so. If your concealment was due to darkness then guess what, it won't do you any good vs. someone with darkvision if they are in range. And you must have a shadow within 10 ft. to do so. It does not explain why, my personal opinion is it is best not to contemplate some thigns too hard. Acceptance is a good thing.

 

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Caliban

I usually envision it as the shadow wrapping around them, or they seem to sink into a piece of the shadow that stretches in their direction.

A valid interpretation, I just put more emphasis on the "while being observed" part of HiPS. Darkvision allows a creature to observe the shadowdancer while in shadows, but the ability is Hide in Plain Sight - so being able to clearly see the SD doesn't stop her from hiding.

Its nice to see a peaceful civil disagreement around here isn't it

Originally Posted by Otterscrubber

All Hide in Plain Sight does is remove #2 from the equation. You must still have cover/concealment in order to do so.

The description of HiPS says "a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind". To me this clearly means that the HiPS ability does remove the need for cover/concealment as long as the SD is within 10 feet of a shadow. Since she doesn't need to be in the shadow at all, the opponents ability to see through the nearby shadows helps him not at all. This appears to be the point of our disagreement - since its a point of interpretation I doubt either of us will change our minds. I just think my interpretation is the simplest

I wonder if Skip will tackle this in his Rules of the Game column.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Why they just didn't let them turn invis or something instead when near shadows boggles me. This is what happens when you try to turn a skill into a power. Everyone can agree on a spell making you impossibly hard to see, but with skills it demands a rational explanation. In this case it breaks down horribly.

 

[Abraxas]

Or they could have easily included a statement to the effect that the ability works regardless of the visual abilities of the SD's opponent.

 

[Diirk]

I don't think something as easy to get as darkvision should render the main power of a class basically worthless. Since they don't even have to be in the shadows, but merely 10' away from one, and it being a supernatural rather than an exceptional ability, I don't think its too much of a stretch to say that the shadowdancer doesn't merely back into a darkspot and hope they aren't seen.

 

[LordAO]

Why? There is absolutely nothing in the description of HiPS that overrules hiding with regards to darkvision. The only thing it allows you to do is hide while you are being observed, which you normally cannot do.

And isn't someone who sees a hiding character with darkvision "observing" him? The term "observation" is all encompassing regardless of the type of vision being used. Clearly, IMHO, hide in Plain Sight defeats darkvision (though they still get their spot check, of course).

 

[FireLance]

To answer this question, let's compare the Shadowdancer HiPS ability with the Ranger's HiPS ability. First, the similarities.

The Ranger's HiPS ability is actually an extension of his Camouflage ability. Camouflage enables him to hide in natural terrain, even if it does not grant cover or concealment. His HiPS ability enables him to hide even if he is being observed.

The SD's HiPS ability seems to encompass both these aspects. A SD can hide even if she is being observed, and I interpret "a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" to mean that she can hide even she does not have cover or concealment.

Now, the differences. The Ranger's HiPS ability is Ex and functions while he is in natural terrain, while the SD's HiPS ability is Su and comes into play when she is within 10 feet of a shadow that is not her own. The Ranger's ability thus seems to depend on what we understand to be "natural forces" - skill, coloration, terrain knowledge, etc. The SD's is magical and needs no natural explanation. She can simply attempt a Hide check without the need for cover or concealment, even if she is being directly observed, as long as she is withing 10 feet of a shadow that is not her own. Just like that. It's magic. Any questions?

That said, the HiPS ability simply negates the need for cover or concealment and allows a check to be made even when being observed. It does not negate any other penalties to Hide checks, such as the -20 penalty for hiding while attacking, running or charging, or the -5 penalty for moving at more than half but less than your speed. Using the Hide skill is still a part of movement, or uses a move action even if you don't move (such as hiding after sniping or making an attack).

On her turn, a SD can (this is not an exhaustive list - just some examples of how I would interpret the rules):

1. Charge as a full-round action, and attempt a Hide check at -20 opposed by her opponent's Spot check. If she succeeds, she is treated as invisible during her attack, but her opponent can now see her and react to her normally if he can act before her next action.

2. Move as a move action, and attempt a Hide check without penalty if she moves at less than half her speed or -5 otherwise opposed by her opponent's Spot check. If she succeeds, she is treated as invisible and may attack as a standard action, but her opponent can now see her and react to her normally if he can act before her next action.

3. Attack as a standard action, and immediately attempt a Hide check at -20 opposed by her opponent's Spot check as a move action. She may also take a 5-foot step as a free action. If she succeeds, she is treated as if invisible at the start of her opponent's turn, but he may retry his Spot check as a move action. The Spot check DC is the SD's last Hide check, including the -20 penalty - she may not re-roll the result.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Whether or not someone can see the shadow shouldn't be an issue. The question should be whether or not a shadows exists within 10' of the shadow dancer. That's all the description requires.

If the shadow dancer was actually hiding in the shadow (requiring a shadow roughly the size of the shadowdancer), not 10' away from one, then darkvision should negate the ability.

 

[Caliban]

Whether or not someone can see the shadow shouldn't be an issue. The question should be whether or not a shadows exists within 10' of the shadow dancer. That's all the description requires.

If the shadow dancer was actually hiding in the shadow (requiring a shadow roughly the size of the shadowdancer), not 10' away from one, then darkvision should negate the ability.

My only problem with this is, if the shadowdancer isn't using the shadow in some fashion, why is it even required?

 

[Abraxas]

The presence of a shadow within 10 feet is the game mechanic limiting factor on the use of the ability - It could be described very simply like this: The presence of a shadow powers the HiPS ability and the SD can only access that power at a very short range - there are lots of ways to explain it.

Lets assume for a moment that the shadowdancer does use the shadows to actually cover herself - why couldn't the HiPS ability also allow her to be indistinguishable from the shadow even to darkvision?

Actually that would be an interesting alternate version of the HiPS ability - it would just require the existance of a shadow roughly the size of the SD. Of course if I used this I would also give them the ability to increase the amount of shadows present in an area.