D&D 5E How would you rule on this Dispell Magic?

[Maxperson]

The wizard sees a flying wand and casts dispel magic to stop it.
Ending invisibility isn't a possible way to stop the flying wand.

Doesn't matter. The caster is aiming at an unknown effect near the wand. The spell isn't intelligent and can't say to itself, "Hmm. Invisibility won't stop the wand. Best hit the flight spell. ". The wizard is grasping at straws with the dispel and might grab the wrong one

BTW, 1st edition Dispel Magic (PHB p. 47) states: "A dispel magic will not affect a specially enchanted item such as a scroll, magic ring, wand, rod, staff, miscellaneous magic item, magic weapon, magic shield, or magic armor."

That is not what I said. I said magic effect, not magic item. That 1e dispel would dispel invisibility generated by any of those items.

 

[plisnithus8]

Doesn't matter. The caster is aiming at an unknown effect near the wand. The spell isn't intelligent and can't say to itself, "Hmm. Invisibility won't stop the wand. Best hit the flight spell. ". The wizard is grasping at straws with the dispel and might grab the wrong one

That is not what I said. I said magic effect, not magic item. That 1e dispel would dispel invisibility generated by any of those items.

The Dispel Magic description states that the caster can choose one magical effect.
Shouldn't the caster have to decide and not the spell?

If the 1e dispel magic does "not affect" the magic armor that is creating the invisible magic effect, then it seems that the invisibility holds.

In 2e it does change to "it removes spell and spell-like effects (including devices and innate abilities) from creatures and objects." PHB p. 191

In 3.5 it reads: "You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities if a magic item, to end ongoing spells (ir at least their effects) within range, ir to counter another spellcaster's spell." PHB p. 223

In 4e, it says "You unleash a ray if crackling arcane energy that destroys a magical effect created by an opponent...[on a hit] The conjuration or the zone is destroyed. All its effects end, including thise that normally last until target saves" - Unknown internet source since I don't have 4e materials.

The description of what Dispel Magic does and effects has changed - sometimes drastically - with each edition so saying recent Sage Advice makes it "contrary to what the spell has stood fir since 1e" seems exagerated.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It sounds like you are describing Surprise, but from my reading (PHB p.189) initiative isn't rolled for Surprise (it's Stealth vs. Perception).
And I'm not sure why "Anyone who rolls higher than the PC, in that case, doesn't know what's going to happen and essentially loses their first turn" - wouldn't the lower roll be the loser of that?

Let's say you are PC1, engaging NPC1 and NPC2 in conversation. You make the decision to attack, in the middle of conversation, and you were previously not hostile to them.

When you decide to attack, initiative is rolled. Let's say you roll an 11, but NPC1 rolls 15 and NPC2 rolls 5. In this case, NPC1 effectively loses their first turn because they're still just engaged in conversation - they don't know that you're hostile yet, so they have no reason to draw their weapon or cast a defensive spell or anything. Then, you attack on your turn as normal. After your turn resolves, NPC2 takes their turn, and probably attacks or casts a spell now that they know you're hostile. On the next round, NPC 1 goes before PC1 goes before NPC2, as normal.

(Or the DM could rule that everyone has a chance to act in the first round of combat, because NPC1 sees you go for your weapon if they happen to roll higher initiative. A lot of it depends on who is standing where, and who can see what, which is why so much is left to DM adjudication.)

The most clear-cut situation is if you're a sniper, engaging enemies who are distracted. You want to shoot NPC1, so you roll initiative before you can do that. NPC1 has no idea that you're there or hostile before you make your attack, so they just go about their normal business. Then you attack on your turn, and then NPC2 goes on their turn. The difference here is that the enemies are probably surprised, if they don't know you're there, which means NPC2 also loses their first turn. Everything goes back to normal on the second round, though, with NPC1 going before PC1 going before NPC2.

 

[Elon Tusk]

Let's say you are PC1, engaging NPC1 and NPC2 in conversation. You make the decision to attack, in the middle of conversation, and you were previously not hostile to them.

When you decide to attack, initiative is rolled. Let's say you roll an 11, but NPC1 rolls 15 and NPC2 rolls 5. In this case, NPC1 effectively loses their first turn because they're still just engaged in conversation - they don't know that you're hostile yet, so they have no reason to draw their weapon or cast a defensive spell or anything. Then, you attack on your turn as normal. After your turn resolves, NPC2 takes their turn, and probably attacks or casts a spell now that they know you're hostile. On the next round, NPC 1 goes before PC1 goes before NPC2, as normal.

(Or the DM could rule that everyone has a chance to act in the first round of combat, because NPC1 sees you go for your weapon if they happen to roll higher initiative. A lot of it depends on who is standing where, and who can see what, which is why so much is left to DM adjudication.)

The most clear-cut situation is if you're a sniper, engaging enemies who are distracted. You want to shoot NPC1, so you roll initiative before you can do that. NPC1 has no idea that you're there or hostile before you make your attack, so they just go about their normal business. Then you attack on your turn, and then NPC2 goes on their turn. The difference here is that the enemies are probably surprised, if they don't know you're there, which means NPC2 also loses their first turn. Everything goes back to normal on the second round, though, with NPC1 going before PC1 going before NPC2.

Is snapping out of the middle of a non-hostile conversation to attack stealthy?

If so, "The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
On the Combat Step by Step chart (PHB p. 189) Determine Surprise is first and Roll Initiative is 3rd so initiative doesn't determine surprise.

If breaking conversation isn't stealthy, then Surprise is skipped and initiative is rolled and no one effectively loses their first turn.

 

[Aenorgreen]

Let's say you are PC1, engaging NPC1 and NPC2 in conversation. You make the decision to attack, in the middle of conversation, and you were previously not hostile to them.

When you decide to attack, initiative is rolled. Let's say you roll an 11, but NPC1 rolls 15 and NPC2 rolls 5. In this case, NPC1 effectively loses their first turn because they're still just engaged in conversation - they don't know that you're hostile yet, so they have no reason to draw their weapon or cast a defensive spell or anything. Then, you attack on your turn as normal. After your turn resolves, NPC2 takes their turn, and probably attacks or casts a spell now that they know you're hostile. On the next round, NPC 1 goes before PC1 goes before NPC2, as normal.

(Or the DM could rule that everyone has a chance to act in the first round of combat, because NPC1 sees you go for your weapon if they happen to roll higher initiative. A lot of it depends on who is standing where, and who can see what, which is why so much is left to DM adjudication.)

The most clear-cut situation is if you're a sniper, engaging enemies who are distracted. You want to shoot NPC1, so you roll initiative before you can do that. NPC1 has no idea that you're there or hostile before you make your attack, so they just go about their normal business. Then you attack on your turn, and then NPC2 goes on their turn. The difference here is that the enemies are probably surprised, if they don't know you're there, which means NPC2 also loses their first turn. Everything goes back to normal on the second round, though, with NPC1 going before PC1 going before NPC2.

That is one way of ruling it, but it penalizes those who have a high initiative. The way my table rules such a situation is that the characters are having a conversation when one of them suddenly reaches for their weapon. That triggers initiative. So in your example NPC1 see that, and can react. They might decide to beat you to the punch and attack, or perhaps just decide to step back and dodge, or even ready an action to wait and see what exactly you are doing. That lets those who are faster get something for it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That is one way of ruling it, but it penalizes those who have a high initiative. The way my table rules such a situation is that the characters are having a conversation when one of them suddenly reaches for their weapon. That triggers initiative. So in your example NPC1 see that, and can react. They might decide to beat you to the punch and attack, or perhaps just decide to step back and dodge, or even ready an action to wait and see what exactly you are doing. That lets those who are faster get something for it.

Well, specifically, it means the person/monster/whatever that declares hostile intent always gets to go first, which is ridiculous. It sets up a perverse incentive to be the first to start a fight because it has a concrete advantage.

When the DM asks for initiative, it is responsibility of the DM to frame the scene with enough information so that meaningful decisions can be made. If there's a situation where a player goes first and has to ask what's happening and is told they don't know, the DM has failed.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Stealth is a skill. Hide is the action you need. It would be up to the DM if Stealth could apply. If I was the DM , I might be generous and allow you to ise your passive stealth vs passive perception , but on an EK that is likely to be at disadvantage for heavy armor.

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[plisnithus8]

Well, specifically, it means the person/monster/whatever that declares hostile intent always gets to go first, which is ridiculous. It sets up a perverse incentive to be the first to start a fight because it has a concrete advantage.

Isn't that what would happen in real life?
Guys in a bar, one decides to start a fight throws the first punch?

When the DM asks for initiative, it is responsibility of the DM to frame the scene with enough information so that meaningful decisions can be made. If there's a situation where a player goes first and has to ask what's happening and is told they don't know, the DM has failed.

I'm not sure what you are directing this point at - the wizard looking at the flying wand?
If you are talking more general, I think there are lots of situations where the character wouldn't know what exactly is happening.

 

[Aenorgreen]

Isn't that what would happen in real life?
Guys in a bar, one decides to start a fight throws the first punch?

Nope, not at all. Having worked in a bar, it is pretty easy to react as the first guy pulls back to throw a punch. It is also the typical western shootout, the first to go for his gun is not always the first to shoot. Watch action movies and you can see it as well.
In this game the mechanic is the initiative order.

 

[Aenorgreen]

I don't think Stealth is an action: Attack, Cast, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search, or Use Object.
Of those Hide is the closest but doesn't seem quite right.
While there are Improvised Actions, Stealth is already described as a Wisdom ability check and seems to be covered in the Surprise section.
If the DM decides surprise is in effect, then it seems the flyer should get his movement and action to Dash.

Sorry I was imprecise in my language. To attempt to stealth is using the hide action.