Romnipotent
First Post
no sneak, cover from table on both sides, the elf should summon something heavy on the table causing it to collapse 
How would you rule the following situation?
- Thread starter shilsen
- Start date
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Halfling has cover available (the table) so by the rules he can attempt a bluff check to get enough of a distraction that he can zip and hide under the table. This might possibly lead to a sneak attack opportunity in a later round, but not in the same round.
If the halfling was feinting and was successful, that could be flavour-text described as running under the table in order to get the feint and i'd give as +2 circumstance bonus to the feint in that circumstance (following the 'DM's friend' advice in the DMG).
Cheers
If the halfling was feinting and was successful, that could be flavour-text described as running under the table in order to get the feint and i'd give as +2 circumstance bonus to the feint in that circumstance (following the 'DM's friend' advice in the DMG).
Cheers
Table provides cover. If the halfling wanted to feint I would give him a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll but otherwise no sneak attacks. If a medium sized creature wanted to try this stunt I would allow a DC 25 tumble check to avoid the squezing penalties otherwise they are squezing.
Defenaetly have the warforged jump on the table
Hope that helps.
Defenaetly have the warforged jump on the table
Hope that helps.
The rogue might get a +1 circumstance bonus for doing something special and cool on the first round, but that's about it.
After that, the elf can counterattack by bending his knees slightly and attacking at the halflings height level.
No cover. No sneak attack. No hide.
Bluffing to feint (and sneak attack) or hide is possible, but the odds of doing either of these are generally not that good, even for a Rogue unless he is higher level.
To me, lowering to attack someone under a table is part of normal combat. Just like moving around a corner to attack someone so that they do not get the cover bonus of the corner.
I do not give a cover bonus unless there is no way for the attacker to avoid the cover from where he wants to attack.
After that, the elf can counterattack by bending his knees slightly and attacking at the halflings height level.
No cover. No sneak attack. No hide.
Bluffing to feint (and sneak attack) or hide is possible, but the odds of doing either of these are generally not that good, even for a Rogue unless he is higher level.
To me, lowering to attack someone under a table is part of normal combat. Just like moving around a corner to attack someone so that they do not get the cover bonus of the corner.
I do not give a cover bonus unless there is no way for the attacker to avoid the cover from where he wants to attack.
FireLance
Legend
Well, just to clarify a couple of things stated in the rules.
The situations which are not covered by the rules are:
1. Would a 2-1/2' tall halfling under a 3' tall table have cover with respect to a Medium elf standing next to it?
The argument is that a Medium elf can always bend or kneel down to negate the cover. However, due to the turn-based nature of D&D combat, I would allow the halfling to benefit from cover for this round, until the elf can adjust his position on his turn. The elf would also have to take the melee penalties for kneeling thereafter.
2. Does an attacker who successfully Hides deny his opponent his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (and can thus sneak attack his opponent)?
I'd allow it, as it seems no different from using a move action to feint in combat, except:
a. It doesn't need a feat;
b. It doesn't come up so often (to balance the above); and
c. The -20 penalty to Hide checks is usually more harsh than allowing your opponent to add his BAB to his Sense Motive check (to further balance the first point).
Of course, it seems as if my view is in the minority.
You can hide while attacking, just at a significant (-20) penalty.SRD said:
I interpret this to mean that a character can attempt a Hide check if he is behind cover, but the opponent can still pitpoint the square or squares where he may be.SRD said:
The situations which are not covered by the rules are:
1. Would a 2-1/2' tall halfling under a 3' tall table have cover with respect to a Medium elf standing next to it?
The argument is that a Medium elf can always bend or kneel down to negate the cover. However, due to the turn-based nature of D&D combat, I would allow the halfling to benefit from cover for this round, until the elf can adjust his position on his turn. The elf would also have to take the melee penalties for kneeling thereafter.
2. Does an attacker who successfully Hides deny his opponent his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (and can thus sneak attack his opponent)?
I'd allow it, as it seems no different from using a move action to feint in combat, except:
a. It doesn't need a feat;
b. It doesn't come up so often (to balance the above); and
c. The -20 penalty to Hide checks is usually more harsh than allowing your opponent to add his BAB to his Sense Motive check (to further balance the first point).
Of course, it seems as if my view is in the minority.
Thanee
First Post
I think this is a rather problematic part in the Hide rules... I mean, really... Hide while charging!?
Hide while attacking is IMHO covered with the sniping rule for ranged combat and should obviously be impossible (except for fighting blind opponents
) in melee.The halfling could hide under the table in his turn, but the elf would immediately see him afterwards, so there is no point in doing so.
And what exactly should that do, anyways, as soon as the halfling emerges from under the table, the hiding condition is gone (before the attack). This is in combat also, so no flat-footed or surprise either.
Bye
Thanee
Storyteller01
First Post
my 2 cents:
No sneak attack, and the halfing gains full cover against the incoming AoO. Elf gains no cover since the the table isn't blocking a target the halfing could have hit otherwise (can a halfing hit anything over the 3 foot mark?).
Have the elf jump on the table, and play 'Pin the Table to the Halfling'!
No sneak attack, and the halfing gains full cover against the incoming AoO. Elf gains no cover since the the table isn't blocking a target the halfing could have hit otherwise (can a halfing hit anything over the 3 foot mark?).
Have the elf jump on the table, and play 'Pin the Table to the Halfling'!
Storyteller01
First Post
FireLance said:
But if the table is only 5 ft across, then the attacker knows exactly what square you're in. No point in hiding, since they know where you are, cover or not. The target knows exzaclty where the next attack will come from. Now if said table were 10 ft or more across...
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drnuncheon
Explorer
I'd definitely give the halfling more cover from the table than the elf - the elf's legs are right there where he can see and attack them, after all.
In 3.0, I'd give the elf 1/4 cover from the halfling, and the halfling 3/4 from the elf (he'd have to emerge slightly to make an attack).
In 3.5 I'd probably grumble about the loss of fine-tuning in the cover rules and then go back to the 3.0 method anyway.
J
In 3.0, I'd give the elf 1/4 cover from the halfling, and the halfling 3/4 from the elf (he'd have to emerge slightly to make an attack).
In 3.5 I'd probably grumble about the loss of fine-tuning in the cover rules and then go back to the 3.0 method anyway.
J
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
If an opponent cannot see you, hide skill or no, you are hidden and effectively invisible.
So you get sneak attack.
HOWEVER - the elf is engaging in normal combat, moving, ducking, weaving. There's not really much impediment to him ducking a bit and looking under the table. In fact, as part of normal combat, that would be one of the things he's doing - the halfling is an opponent, and he's keeping track of him.
So you're not out of sight, and he's not flatfooted.
It's important, because there might be ways that you could manage that one-way vision outside of this example. Offhand I can't think of them.
As for people complaining about hiding while charging or running - you STILL have to have cover or concealment during the charge or movement - it's not like you're running at someone screaming and then suddenly disappear. You run at someone through the fog and he loses track of you.
So you get sneak attack.
HOWEVER - the elf is engaging in normal combat, moving, ducking, weaving. There's not really much impediment to him ducking a bit and looking under the table. In fact, as part of normal combat, that would be one of the things he's doing - the halfling is an opponent, and he's keeping track of him.
So you're not out of sight, and he's not flatfooted.
It's important, because there might be ways that you could manage that one-way vision outside of this example. Offhand I can't think of them.
As for people complaining about hiding while charging or running - you STILL have to have cover or concealment during the charge or movement - it's not like you're running at someone screaming and then suddenly disappear. You run at someone through the fog and he loses track of you.
