HP and Polymorph/Wildshape

[youspoonybard]

While the 2 above-mentioned abilities say that you keep you HP, they no longer stress that, unlike any other sort of con modification, your Con bonus to HP changes.

Does this mean that your modified con due to these effects causes your HP to change? Are Druids only reliant on Wisdom now?

 

[Murrdox]

I'm guessing "NO" is going to be the answer on this one.

If Druids or Polymorphers get or lose hit points from polymorphing then you open up a huge bag of worms.

You run into wacky things, like a Druid who Wildshapes into a Bear, and gets a ton of extra hit points from the CON bonus. Then, he gets wounded quite a bit. Finally, a Wizard polymorphs the Druid into a mouse, at which point he takes a huge CON penalty. The loss of hitpoints kills him.

Or say you're a Druid and you're terribly wounded, you couldn't Wildshape into an Eagle with a CON penalty to escape, because the hit point loss would kill you. Also, you're not allowed to Wildshape into a creature with a huge CON bonus just to get a few extra hit points to allow you to escape.

For all these reasons, you keep your own HP when Wildshaping or Polymorphing, regardless of the HD or CON of the new form.

 

[youspoonybard]

I deal with poison damage a lot, and see this sort of thing come up quite a bit. Doesn't seem unnatural to me, in D&D.

 

[LokiDR]

While the 2 above-mentioned abilities say that you keep you HP, they no longer stress that, unlike any other sort of con modification, your Con bonus to HP changes.

Does this mean that your modified con due to these effects causes your HP to change? Are Druids only reliant on Wisdom now?

Polymorph and wildshape don't change HP, so they don't. In the case of those effects, your changed con doesn't effect HP, unlike other cases such as bear's endurance.

 

[ForceUser]

Keep in mind that polymorph, wild shape and shapechage are all based on the foundation laid in alter self now.

Alter self says "shape changing works like this." Polymorph/wild shape says "shaping changing works like alter self, except for this, this and this."

Under the text of alter self it specifically states that your hit points do not change, and even though polymorph says you gain the Con score of the creature you turn into, it does not explicitly refute the alter self text regarding hit points. Therefore, your Con changes (presumably affecting Fortitude saves) but you do not gain or lose hit points.

That's how I interpret it anyway.

 

[youspoonybard]

I'm perfectly comfortable with it being that way. I Wild Shape into birds all the time, and the keeping your HP bit is fine with me. That's the way it always was for Polymorph, and it specifically said so.

However, let's put it this way: you keep your BAB, but add your new str mod to it. You keep your base saves, but your con and dex scores modify it differently. Saves, BAB, and HP are all dependant on your class stats. It's just that the new forms constitution modifies the HP, just like saves and BAB are modified.

Hmmm. Don't know if my point got through. Anyway, I was happy that HP stayed the same, regardless of con score. The problem was this was the one exception to the con change = hp change in the rules, and now the special exemption text is wrong. I wish there was something like a "base HP" and a "con bonus to HP", that would make this clear.

Hmmm.

 

[LokiDR]

Keep in mind that polymorph, wild shape and shapechage are all based on the foundation laid in alter self now.

Alter self says "shape changing works like this." Polymorph/wild shape says "shaping changing works like alter self, except for this, this and this."

Under the text of alter self it specifically states that your hit points do not change, and even though polymorph says you gain the Con score of the creature you turn into, it does not explicitly refute the alter self text regarding hit points. Therefore, your Con changes (presumably affecting Fortitude saves) but you do not gain or lose hit points.

That's how I interpret it anyway.

Alter self doesn't change HP or con. Polymorph does change con. Changes in con are retroactive to hitpoints. Polymorph doesn't state HP aren't effected. So, polymorph does change HP by manipulation of con. Alter self doesn't apply because it doesn't have any reason to change con.

 

[Wippit Guud]

Just to cover both threads, from Baneful Polymorph:

As polymorph, except that you change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD. If the new form would prove fatal to the creature the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

Done as an attack, save bonus.
Done because you weren't trakcing your HP in a larger form - see barbarian rage reprocussions


EDIT: As Baneful Poly states 'would prove fatal', it seems to indicate that a con change would affect HP.

 

[youspoonybard]

I always thought the fatal part was turning a guy into a fish on land...

Still, once their an animal, they're cooked anyway. Hit em with it right away.

 

[LokiDR]

Just to cover both threads, from Baneful Polymorph:



Done as an attack, save bonus.
Done because you weren't trakcing your HP in a larger form - see barbarian rage reprocussions


EDIT: As Baneful Poly states 'would prove fatal', it seems to indicate that a con change would affect HP.

I agree, but the implication is weak at best. I'll agree with Spoony that the provision was meant to stop fish on land syndrom.