I don't like D&D item creation any more

I haven't yet run a game where item creation was a major factor (I haven't had the time to run many games, alas). I don't like using up XP as a general rule, however.

D&D has a mix of one-shot resources and regenerating resources. Skill points, feats, campaign time, and gold are the main one-shot resources; hit points, ability scores, and levels (via negative levels) are the primary regenerating resources. XP just doesn't work as well.

I've intended to shift the cost burden from XP to other resources (primarily money and time for magic items), but haven't drawn up hard and fast rules.

The craft point system in UA shifts the burden to feats and skill points, which is also alright by me, but probably less desireable in a game that doesn't feature crafting as a major point.
 

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Geoff Watson said:
In game, the XP cost is unimportant.

At low levels, the GP cost is the limit, at high levels time is the main limit (with GP for the realy huge items).

It's only a problem for crafters who give the items away to the other PCs at half price with no compensation for the XP.

This matches my experience exactly, gold first time second, XP is a limiting factor in terms of some spells - 300xp for a planar ally? Im a sure I need that help?
but a +2 stat bonus for 150? never in question. 16 days for a +4? something bad might happen
it has to be planned carefully.
 

The main unfortunate fact is that all D&D rules are designed around the PCs, and they don't make sense fully if you try to imagine a whole population living by the same rules...

It doesn't make sense for example that to advance as a tailor, a cook or a basketweaver, you need to advance in level, something which can be done (by default) only by adventuring. It would certainly make more sense for someone that does NOT adventure, to have more time to concentrate on his profession.

Unfortunately the item creation rules are there with the PC only in mind: creating an item with an IC feat means (1) to choose exactly what item you want to have (although in most groups you can just buy it at the nearest large enough village) rather than getting it from treasure, and (2) get a 50% gp discount. Obviously they had to add some other non-RP cost or a PC could easily have up to double the supposed equipment. It's not simply a matter of limit, but more a matter of cost...

If you make item creation xp-free but costing "craft points", which of course you're granting for free :) the result is that you make it limited but once again free.

If you just count on the time cost, most of the times you end up adjusting the adventures so that this cost becomes once more free, because there is no other choice... should you attempt all the time at making the crafting time a real cost for the crafter, you'll just irritate the players. And how would you do it anyway? If the whole party cannot save the princess because the wizard needs time for crafting her staff, what happens? Either the crafting is paused (which creates a delay, but still no material cost) or the adventure is abandoned. Anyway, there will be another later.

It's very hard to find an alternative...

A possibility could be to remove the xp cost, and make the crafting cost full gp market price. This would work only if in your setting magic items availability is not easy... because if you instead play with the common house rule that "everything below a certain market price is on sale in every town", then with this new crafting rules there is absolutely no reason to take an IC feat.
 

IMC I have started using P-Kitty's idea for XP... PC leveling is based on story demands instead of bean counting kills, and on gaining a level the PC gains 5 + 1/2 level in AP. These AP can be converted to XP for use in casting spells/Item Creation.

My groups mage is looking at some minor item creation stuff in the next couple levels, so I can't validate in play, but conceptually it works well.

Other PC's can also invest thier AP/XP into the process as well.

Another alternative not yet mentioned is to use 'power components' based on the rule of thumb that 5gp = 1 xp. Simply designate a rare something poetically related to the desired powers/effects and have the PCs quest or purchase.

As for my experience, I have only had players use the Brew Potion feat... altho in other systems {EoM and Elric!} I have played artificer types.
 

Li Shenron nailed the problems for a DM concerning crafting. Something I have been considering is to turn all wands and staves into use per day items, or items that allow you to burn a spell slot for a spell stored in the item. Essentially they become extra spells known/prepared.

With this, you would leave craft scroll and brew potion as is, minus the xp. All other item creation feats go away, and instead you could take a feat to give you one item of your choice that grows with your PC. Not like the legacy items, more like the ancestral daisho from the OA samurai class. Their sword gains an effective +1 per level. This works well for arms and armor, and a number of wondrous items like rings of protection and bracers of armor. Minor items like haversacks fall in between major items and potions.

Other items may take some creativity. One item I plan on making for my wizard PC is a ring of telekinesis that is heightened to a ninth level spell and my full caster level. The cost comes in close to a +10 weapon, so its an item that could grow well, always using the PCs level as the CL, and the DC increasing at every odd level.

The idea behind this is legendary items carried by heroes take on a life of their own. This would allow PCs to have custom items for a price, while also getting rid of most crafting rules. The item simply increases in power under the same concept as a wizard gaining their spells every level due to continuous study between adventure. Anything else the PCs want, they have to by or find.
 

Li Shenron said:
The main unfortunate fact is that all D&D rules are designed around the PCs, and they don't make sense fully if you try to imagine a whole population living by the same rules...

Agreed. Which is why I've always assumed that there is another set of rules by which most of the rest of the population lives. Both rules apply equally to the PCs and the NPCs but the rules presented for the PCs are far more applicable to adventurers, and the rules which aren't presented - because they aren't really applicable to adventurers - are far more applicable to everyone else.

It doesn't make sense for example that to advance as a tailor, a cook or a basketweaver, you need to advance in level, something which can be done (by default) only by adventuring.

Which is why you shouldn't try to go to simulationist using the default rules, because they aren't intended to simulate anything other than the adventuring environs. It does make sense that you can advance a level as a tailor by sewing cloths. So, assume that if you want a level in tailor, you can spend a few years sewing cloths. This will have no practical impact on the PCs, but it doesn't explain where the 3rd level experts came from.

In my games from the time of 1st edition, I've always assumed that ordinary training and practice could grant you experience. I just assumed that it was so slow that PC's would largely not be interested in it, being almost always able to find better things to do with their time.

I have alot of problems with the item creation rules as they stand, but the fact that you must trade XP for items is not one of them. That actually seems rather inspired to me.

Problem #1: Flavor. I'm ecstatic that D&D finally has universal item creation mechanic, but I'm less than thrilled at how gamist it is. Essentially, you take gold and XP, hit it with a hammer and transform it into any item in the game. But, of course, magic items aren't usually literally made of large piles of coins. Something is lost. While I don't want to go back to explicit shopping lists for each item, because that was always a pain in the rear, IMO, it would have been great if right from the start the one major item involved in creating the item was listed and if you can obtain that item the cost in gold of producing the item was discounted by 25%. There are several benefits to this from a DM's perspective. It's an adventure hook. It oozes flavor. And, it allows the DM a veto over items he doesn't want coming into the game in such a mundane manner without simply saying "No." - "Your normal supplier informs you that there are no manticore's teeth on the market, anywhere, at any price. You'll have to find another way to acquire them."

Problem #2: Ease. The easy access to magic items is a two way street. On the one hand, I want the players to be able to craft thier own items. This is a satisfying endeavor for both player and dungeon master. On the other hand, I don't want the crafting of items to be so easy the specialness of magic items is unappreciated. Right now, when you gain a feat, you automatically know how to create everything. My preference would be that there are two periods of time involved. First, you have to research how to make the object. Then you have to spend time making it. From a DM's perspective, there are alot of benefits to this. It's very flavorful. It helps explain what's in all those magical tomes of the arcane other than spells. And, it is by implication therefore a plot hook. And because the means of making an item is now valuable it lets the DM hand out recipes for making magic items as valued treasure - something that I'm use to from my 1st edition games.

Problem #3: Required spell use. On the whole, this is good thing. I want a list of the spells involved in making a magic item. The problem with this is that for certain sorts of magic items - notably potions - I don't necessarily want these to be the exclusive domain of spell casters. I would be nice if there was an explicit mechanic whereby enough ranks of alchemy and a recipe could substitute for spell-casting ability. I'm used to alchemists playing a very big role in my campaign world. Similarly, I'd love to have a unified mechanic by which high level crafters - say in flavor, the legendary dwarven smiths - could turn out magic weapons and armor without recourse to spell-casting ability. At some point the line between skill and magic should blur.

Problem #4: Item crafting rules suck. Basically, the rules for figuring out the time required to create mundane items suck. They are inconsistant and produce counterintuitive results. Worse yet, they depend on the fixed value of the item. You can't use the crafting rules to figure out how much an item should cost. So far, I've seen some brave tries at fixing the rules, but none I'm completely happy with.

Problem #5: Ready availability. The default assumption seems to be that if you are in a big enough town (and cities in fantasy tend to default to unrealistically large anyway), that anything you could want to buy is available. Not only is every hamlet got a virtual wal-mart, but they are all apparantly mythical Bagdad with the practical equivalent of hawkers of magical wares lining the streets. It's not just that I don't like the flavor; it's that it tends to greatly reduce the value of having an item crafting feat if you can expect to readily obtain the item with far less fuss than making it yourself.

Problem #6: Poor economics. The rules for buying and selling magic items are designed for handling only the most light-weight of situations. Several posters have complained in other threads that under the default rules, PC crafters get shafted when they try to resell thier own creations.
 


Kisanji Arael said:
Herein lies my inherent problem with EXP components for item creation.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Have you found a better method and/or built a better mousetrap? I would love to hear about anything that you all have done.

I didn't have to get through two sentences of your post to come to an agreement with you, my friend. I have always hated the XP cost associated with Item Creation. That aspect of the fabrication of magical items in 3.0/3.5 is actually the one thing I've always felt was inferior to previous deitions of (A)D&D.

I created a Master Alchemist class back in 2003/04, which relied on a components/ingredients-based system (more reliance on monetary cost and actually finding components to balance out Item Creation); I'd have to dig it up and would consider posting it; with some modifications it could be useful.

My knee-jerk reaction would be to suggest dispensing with XP costs altogether and devise a system as I did: One that perhaps requires either a heightened GP cost, crafting time, and more reliance on obscure ingredients/components.
 

hps spend rather than xp

I came up with a system, circa 2002, in which the item make has to imbue hit points into an item he is creating in one of two ways:

1) The item creater loses X hit points during the creation period, weaknening him for the length of the creation

2) The item creator loses x/4 hit points permanently after the item is created imbuing the hit points into the item. As long as the creator has the item in his possession, he gains access to those imbued hit points. When the item is destroyed/consumed, he regains the hit points.

X=current xp cost/20

So a wand of fireballs (mc 11,250, xp 450) would either cost the item creator 22 hps during creation for the 11 days it takes to make, or permanently lose 6 hps after creation, if he doesn't have the item in his possession.

The cost is high, but can be paid for by others (with app. feat selection) by sacrafice, by participation of others, or other means. This is particularly common in creation of more powerful items, such as Staff of Power (400 hps/100 hps permanent)
 

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