D&D 5E I little idea on 5e Core, pacing, and "dailies."

[Tony Vargas]

First off, interesting idea in your OP. I'm not sure how well it'd play in a campaign-style game where resources come and go over time, but I can sure see it being a useful option for tournament or convention play.

In a campaign, you'd adjust your 'pacing dial' where you want it, and that'd be the end of it.

As an introduction to the game, though, core would be a teaching tool, so you'd move from no resource management while you figure out the mechanics, to managing resources within an encounter, to experimenting with the 'dial' to figure out where you'd want to put a campaign in terms of pacing.

That said, in the greater game I'm not sure you can shoehorn all the different types of resource management onto one single dial, a) because there are so many types, and b) because different groups are going to care more/less about each different type. Result: each resource probably needs to be on its own little dial.

I'm not thinking of things like counting arrows or acquiring healing potions, here - consumables are an entirely different question.

I'm thinking things used and recovered on a regular cycle. Like Vancian Spells, 4e Dailies, AD&D Dragon breath, hit points (or healing surges) and the like.

So, the following would /need/ to be on one 'dial,' because to do otherwise would radically alter any balance that may exist among the classes, major magic items, monsters, etc:

- spells castable and recovery of
- healing
- hit points (and recovery via rest)
- limited-use items
- - x uses per y time items
- action/fate/hero points (in games that use such)

Most of the rest are consumable or can be made/bought, and thus all reducible to wealth, which might or might not really need a 'dial' (gold vs silver standard, maybe?), but would have nothing much to do with the previous dial.
- ammunition
- - one-shots (scrolls, potions)
- - charged items
- mundane equipment (torches, oil, rope, etc.)
- food and water
- treasure and wealth
- - "liquid" wealth (coins, gems, etc.)
- - magic items owned/bought/sold/traded
- - real estate (businesses, castles, temples, etc.)
- henchmen/hirelings/cohorts
- animals and food/gear for such

That leaves:
- experience points (in 3e these are a spendable resource)
- time
- encumbrance
- spells known

Experience points should probably just be left to advancement rather than having life-level drain or investing them in items.

Time is a 'resource' in the sense that you can spend it doing things, but not a renewable one, nor one you can make/buy, so it's just kinda there. The pacing of the campaign (that first dial 'above') would have some bearing on how 'valuable' time is, because the faster the pacing, the more you could systematically use re-charging resources.

Encumbrance and spells known are interesting 'resources,' but they're clearly not measured on a time scale, so wouldn't be part of the first dial, above. If spells can be bought, they'd be part of the wealth dial, if any, likewise, Bags of Holding could put encumbrance there.

However, both are also interesting resources in that they affect how your character can 'kit himself out' for a mission - either in the sense of the range of spells he can swap in, or the gear he can swap in (and what he'll be able to do in it). Encumbrance could be a very interesting thing to manage in very gritty games.

 

[erleni]

Kudos to the OP. It will also be quite good for newbies who can later add resource management.

 

[TwoSix]

But, I could also see core having resources (beyond hps), just not anything as pacing-enforcing as 'daily' resources. Encounter still strikes me as the purest resource management period to start with. It's the smallest unit you can have, so the least issue of needing to track resources from one session to the next, and the simplest to grasp. You could give characters abilities that they only get to use once in a given battle. Like a fire-and-forget spell or an Action Point or a spectacular move or grenade-like magic item.

As you go up levels, you get more such resources. And, the DM can adjust the 'dial' to fit his campaign pacing, from Encounter, to Day, to Story or whatever calibration our crack design team decides is best.

Hmm. I'd actually argue the "purest" form of resource management is the resource that doesn't recharge at all, the consumable.

Maybe 1st level characters don't have any recharge abilities. They can swing their sword, or shoot their crossbow. Everybody has a few healing potions given to them by the village alchemist. The casters have some scrolls in their bags. They can make more when they go back to the village, but the magic ink and magic paper cost gold.

I like this approach for new players, because it suggests a story line right off the bat.

"Ow, those goblins who found us really hurt me. What can I do?"

"Well, you can go back to town and rest for a week, all your HPs will come back. Or you can drink your healing potion."

"But I only have 3 potions, and they cost 10 gold each back at the village."

"Those goblins you fought have 50 silver in their pockets, that's 5 gold right there. Plus you got enough experience that you're almost halfway to level 2. Maybe find some goblins? And use that sleep scroll next time, Jim, so Dave doesn't get hit quite so much."

Somewhat ironically, if you want to see how to introduce newer gamers to D&D, look to MMOs. In MMOs, the first levels go quickly, you don't have very many abilities, and they don't have cooldowns.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hmm. I'd actually argue the "purest" form of resource management is the resource that doesn't recharge at all, the consumable.

Sure, I suppose that's the other extreme.

Maybe 1st level characters don't have any recharge abilities. They can swing their sword, or shoot their crossbow. Everybody has a few healing potions given to them by the village alchemist. The casters have some scrolls in their bags. They can make more when they go back to the village, but the magic ink and magic paper cost gold.

That'd introduce or emphasize the treasure-hunting aspect of D&D, every bit as classic as the daily-resource-management one, and probably more intuitive for those completely new to the game. So, yeah, that might be a good place to introduce resources. So:

1: Pick characters from mostly-complete templates (pre-gens)
2: Read an intro-adventure backstory setting up a possible encounter.
3: Run through the encounter.
4: Pick up some 'treasure' including money and some consumables - potions, scrolls, magic arrows.
5: Run through an encounter using those.

A few such encounters and the idea of managing resources (hps and consumables) is sinking in, so you can introduce 'deeper' character resources, like surges, vancian spells and the like. Perhaps between 'sessions' first, or experimenting with the 'dial' until it feels right.

Somewhat ironically, if you want to see how to introduce newer gamers to D&D, look to MMOs. In MMOs, the first levels go quickly, you don't have very many abilities, and they don't have cooldowns.

Don't want to go there...

 

[TwoSix]

1: Pick characters from mostly-complete templates (pre-gens)
2: Read an intro-adventure backstory setting up a possible encounter.
3: Run through the encounter.
4: Pick up some 'treasure' including money and some consumables - potions, scrolls, magic arrows.
5: Run through an encounter using those.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly how I was thinking it could go. That would be level 1, maybe level 2. At 2 or you 3 you start gaining innate resources, like spells, manuevers, etc.

 

[Texicles]

Don't want to go there...

Interestingly enough, some of the innovations in MMO ability design revolve around the concept of a zero-cooldown abilities that are limited by some resource mechanic like mana. During an extended period, this resource may run dry, but on a small enough time table, say one encounter, this resource is not practically limited. (Yes, I know that encounter design in MMOs varies greatly, but let's use a handful of kobolds as the metric by which we judge "one encounter")

In essence, this is very similar to your proposal of at-will style powers and encounter-centric design making up the bulk of the core, and a design direction that I think has a definite place and utility, especially for newer players. Like them or hate them, MMOs pulled a lot of design elements from tabletop games, and built on those things. I'm a firm believer that the tabletop industry, in it's long, methodical (maybe even ponderous) process of evolution, can in fact learn from it's developmentally faster-paced cousin.

That's not to say everything needs to be about tactical combat a la 4E, but we shouldn't throw out good ideas that come from a set of changes because we don't care for a few of them. All this does is lead to grognardism, which I'm rather convinced will ultimately be more harmful to the RPG industry than anything new that WotC, Paizo, et. al. may try doing, successfully or otherwise.

TL;DR I dig your idea. Even if it has more in common with MMO design than you think.

 

[Tony Vargas]

TL;DR I dig your idea. Even if it has more in common with MMO design than you think.

Seriously (OK, humorously and metahorically), "That's just like an MMO!" was one of the spiked clubs the "h4ters" used to beat 4e to death.


I know you're just making an observation on the universal nature of game design, and I'm not asking you to refrain from that. Just want you know the context your comment might be taken in.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

But, I could also see core having resources (beyond hps), just not anything as pacing-enforcing as 'daily' resources. Encounter still strikes me as the purest resource management period to start with. It's the smallest unit you can have, so the least issue of needing to track resources from one session to the next, and the simplest to grasp. You could give characters abilities that they only get to use once in a given battle. Like a fire-and-forget spell or an Action Point or a spectacular move or grenade-like magic item.

I'm going off of pure theory-crafting in this response, but I suspect that an even easier to grasp form of simple resource management would be some kind of charged items. Ideally, have finite charges until certain conditions are met.

Arrows are the obvious example, but I don't think you have to stop there, necessarily. For example, some "spells" with a bit of extra oomph over "at-will" options, perhaps roughly analogous to 4E encounter powers in power, but set up on a finite charge basis, is fairly clear. You go down into the dungeon, and up to 12 times you can do X. Every time you do X, you'll have to pay to recharge it--when you get out, if you want it available for the next foray.

Also obvious, you can put those kind of things into wands or staves, to imitate earlier D&D, but I think this might be a mistake for the purposes stated in the OP. As a tangent, I was already thinking separately several days ago that one of the problems with Vancian casting is that the resource management is so all or nothing, that it makes it tough for beginners. Let that sleep spell go at just the right moment, the party wins. Pick poorly, and you may have a TPK. (Next is a little more resilent already than Basic in that respect, due to more hit points and more options, but still has a touch of it.) If you think about it, having big gun, all or nothing powers, is a rather extreme form of resource management. Characters having some abilities that functioned a lot like item charges would go a long way towards solving that aspect. In theory.

Edit: Had not read the later posts by Tony and TwoSix covering much the same ground before I posted this response, but I'll let it stand as written.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Now having read the rest of the topic, I'll also add that players like to find stuff that matters. It's easier for stuff to matter when you have low-powered resources that have several but not infinite uses.

Think about it like this. If healing potions cure 1d8+5 hit points, are always usable, and 1st level characters start with about 12-16 hit points, then finding one is a big deal. The DM can't hand them out freely, or they start to not matter. If the party misses one, it could hurt later.

OTOH, if characters have 16-20 hit points, while basic healing potions cure 1d4+1 hit points, and you can only carry so many (because of weight of the container or whatever), then the DM can hand them out more freely. Some of them can get used up by opponents, broken, missed in the treasure behind the idol, etc... because you can hand out 12 in the adventure knowing that the party will find 6-8 of them. And if they get slightly more or less, it will still work.

In the same way, finding a gem that lets you recharge a couple of charges in your 8 charge wand of slightly hotter flame is less extreme than finding or missing that scroll of 5d6 fireball.

 

[billd91]

So... why would I pick up this game as a D&D edition when I've already got it in Mutants and Masterminds? I can play that with all swords and sorcery trappings already.