I love D&D.....but.

[iserith]

By the way I would say that Dungeon World, run as intended, is actually harder to run than D&D 5e. A Dungeon World GM is way more constrained than a DM and the rules must be followed to produce the intended play experience. It's a good game and I'm a fan (my name's in the book!), but it's not necessarily easier than D&D.

 

[Mercule]

Maybe it's just time for a change of pace, at least for a while. I highly recommend FATE and FATE Accelerated for what you're looking for. The rules are a lot more streamlined, and you have more leeway in how you define your character. It's really easy to port over the information from your favorite fantasy setting and translate it into FATE rules.

So... I absolutely love the look of Fate. I ran a FAE one-shot and enjoyed it, even as I look back and see where I botched somethings. I'd love, love, love to switch to Fate Core.

Here's my biggest problem: Magic. It's a big system and I've yet to see anything for Fate that really floats my boat. I want the variety of D&D, without the Vancian slots. All the examples seem to be either very subtle, fluffy magic (Zird from the core book) or just clunky (Fate Freeport -- super ick).

To put a pretty fine point on it, what I'd like to do is run Eberron using Fate. The Dragonmarks are actually pretty easy -- just crib liberally from the Six Viziers in the toolkit. Any suggestions for the rest of the world?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Here's my biggest problem: Magic. It's a big system and I've yet to see anything for Fate that really floats my boat.

Nod. I did not care for the magic system in Dresden Files. Fate seems lovely for doing characters, but when a character in fiction gets a supernatural power it tends to overwhelm the character in the story sense, they become all about the power and, maybe, coping with it, so, I'm guessing Fate games either try to avoid that, end up with 'meh' magic, or try to maintain the level of character-centrism in the magic system, making it fiddly. It's that much worse if there are going to be both magic-using and non-magic-using characters.

I want the variety of D&D, without the Vancian slots.

Then how do you 'balance' or 'pay-for' that variety - or at least create an appearance of having done so?

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Thanks everyone. I knew I could count on you. I will be taking a look at a couple of these. Other systems Savage Worlds, Beyond the Wall, and Dungeon World. I watched a video with one of the Dungeon World creators....wow I was blown away. I may delve into Shadowrun which I have or ICRPG since I like Hank.

I am almost always the DM. This weekend I will be a player in Rise of the Runelords. I don't really care for Pathfinder but being on the player side of the screen is like a vacation.

I had a terrible session last Saturday. It put me into a funk. Some of you pointed out that it might be my group. I have tried homebrew for my group. I have tried published modules (I struggle mightily with those and that was what we were doing Saturday). I gravitate towards sandbox as a player and GM but I think my group lacks the player types that can take advantage of those. Maybe the groups is just a bad fit for one another. Can it be that a railroad would actually help?


And when I say I struggle mightily with running published modules I am not overstating it. In fact that may be why I felt so bad abut the situation. I feel deficient when I try. I put probably twice the effort into it compared to any adventure I design and it falls flat. It's Costanza-esque it's so bad.

I know how you feel. I have a group that I cant seem to DM for; the things they say they would love, what they actually want and what I can offer as a DM is always off in some way. Its hard to quit a group as a DM without it having no effect whatsoever on the rest of the relation. Anyway.

Railroad-y plot have a bad reputation, but they can be really fun with a group that love fast-paced, action packed adventures. Its not bad DMing to give your players the equivalent of MCU movies in D&D games if its what they want; some people dont play D&D to immerse themselves in morally ambiguous make-your-own-fortune free-roam campaigns. When I Dm for this kind of players, I take old video-games players guides (Final Fantasy, Icewind Dale, Dark Alliance, Dragon Age etc) and make them play through the scenario: its very low-prep, all the setting/NPC infos are already created, all I need to do is run the NPC and improvise some stats, often by just refluffing stuff from the Monster Manual.

 

[Afrodyte]

So... I absolutely love the look of Fate. I ran a FAE one-shot and enjoyed it, even as I look back and see where I botched somethings. I'd love, love, love to switch to Fate Core.

Here's my biggest problem: Magic. It's a big system and I've yet to see anything for Fate that really floats my boat. I want the variety of D&D, without the Vancian slots. All the examples seem to be either very subtle, fluffy magic (Zird from the core book) or just clunky (Fate Freeport -- super ick).

To put a pretty fine point on it, what I'd like to do is run Eberron using Fate. The Dragonmarks are actually pretty easy -- just crib liberally from the Six Viziers in the toolkit. Any suggestions for the rest of the world?

There are different ways to do magic. The FATE Toolkit has different ways of doing it. It's extremely customizable, so you're pretty much limited only by your imagination. I'm not familiar enough with Eberron to come up with something on the fly, but if I get the info and have a few days, I can probably whip something up.

That being said, to mimic D&D-style magic sans Vancian slots, you can require that PCs have an Aspect that gives them magical ability (say, "Cleric of Pelor" or "Evocation Initiate") and call for a Will roll to cast a spell. You can even come up with stunts to give spellcasting more flavor, or for extra oomph when dramatically appropriate. Like, for a wizard, a Lore stunt that lets them cast spells by making a Lore roll instead of a Will roll. Or, for ritual casting, add a bonus but require the ritual to take up a whole scene.

 

[Mercule]

Nod. I did not care for the magic system in Dresden Files. Fate seems lovely for doing characters, but when a character in fiction gets a supernatural power it tends to overwhelm the character in the story sense, they become all about the power and, maybe, coping with it, so, I'm guessing Fate games either try to avoid that, end up with 'meh' magic, or try to maintain the level of character-centrism in the magic system, making it fiddly. It's that much worse if there are going to be both magic-using and non-magic-using characters.

I haven't read the original Dresden Files rules, but my understanding is that it was practically impossible to play wizards and straights in the same group. I have DFA, though, and it seems playable. I think Fate Accelerated is easier to do magic in than Core because Accelerated is considerably better suited to hand waving than Core. By the time you get to "I'm being Forceful" it really doesn't matter whether the force is coming from a gun, a sword, or a spell. That's part of why I'm very good with having Accelerated in my tool belt for one-shots, but also why I'd rather go with Core for a campaign.

Then how do you 'balance' or 'pay-for' that variety - or at least create an appearance of having done so?

Personally, I'm partial to skill-based systems or to costs for magic -- or both. I think it's necessary for Eberron to have "reliable magic", since it's part of the foundation of the setting, and all. But, by saying wizards (etc.) have the option of throwing a fate/mana point for any given spell to skip the die roll and assume a +0 serves the setting quite well. After all, no one cares whether you succeeded with style for a continual flame spell, which is the sort of thing that actually powers the economy.

No. Where I struggle is how do you let a wizard have more than three spells when that's all the more stunts they start with (Fate characters start as "competent" not first level)? You could go the route of Mage: the Whatever or Ars Magicka and have several broad skills, but that strays too far from D&D tropes to make Eberron work, IMO. It also runs into the trouble of having a ridiculously long skill list.

I feel like I'm getting closer in refining my ideas. I've got a Favored Soul in my current D&D game who I'm actually trying to convert to Fate, tonight, for giggles. Things like metamagic aren't a big deal, other than permission to split rolls between targets. To give the sorcerous flair, I'm thinking that letting him spend physical stress boxes to add to his magic rolls is appropriate. Duplicating flame bolt is just saying he can use the Sorcery skill to make a ranged attack with fire -- not a big deal, at all. The warding bond spell he uses to bolster his Paladin sister, though, is a bit harder. I'm thinking about a stunt that would let him spend a fate point to allow his sister to send stress his way for a scene (effectively giving her two tracks). Thaumaturgy and prestidigitation are probably just permission to let him say he's using magic to do things that otherwise wouldn't have to roll dice for or invoking his "sorcerer" aspect to spend a fate point on a roll. Invisibility is just a stunt that lets him use Sorcery in place of Stealth or to spend a fate point to gain the "invisible" aspect for the scene. Guidance is a stunt that lets him do anything with an strong element of luck (GM call) at scale. I have no clue how to do fly or cure wounds, though.

Typing that out, it all sounds pretty solid, until I realize that it would involved something like 6-8 stunts to do. I could grant him a "package deal" of three or four of them for a cost of 2 refresh, but that doesn't totally make up the gap. And, he's just a sorcerer. Turn him into a wizard, with the vast litany of spells that entails, and it's a real puzzle. I think using the ability to swap out a stunt at a major milestone -- maybe with a perk that lets a wizard do more than one, as long as they're all "spell" stunts -- could be an effective way of replicating the spell book idea. Still, that's just another way of doing Vancian slots and it's actually fewer slots.

Clerics, I don't really care about because I've never cared for them using the same mechanic as wizards. In an Eberron campaign, I'd probably keep it because of the way divine magic is explained, in setting. For home brew, though, I'd want something different.

Edit: Tagging [MENTION=8713]Afrodyte[/MENTION] because more detail.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Accelerated is considerably better suited to hand waving than Core. By the time you get to "I'm being Forceful" it really doesn't matter whether the force is coming from a gun, a sword, or a spell...

...Personally, I'm partial to skill-based systems or to costs for magic -- or both. I think it's necessary for Eberron to have "reliable magic", since it's part of the foundation of the setting, and all...Where I struggle is how do you let a wizard have more than three spells when that's all the more stunts they start with

That's the issue I was seeing.

You could go the route of Mage: the Whatever or Ars Magicka and have several broad skills, but that strays too far from D&D tropes to make Eberron work, IMO. It also runs into the trouble of having a ridiculously long skill list.

Mage had 9 spheres and Ars Magicka, IIRC, had sets of verbs and objects (something like that?) - they both let you cast magick more or less extemporaneously. Another similar mechanic would be the Variable Power Pool from Hero System. One or a few mechanics, many effects, many times as many possible 'spells.'

You probably could get them just as close to D&D tropes as you wanted, they are all pretty flexible/powerful mechanics, it's all in how you constrain them.
(I've seen people do it in Hero, not just magic, but the quirks of D&D combat, too - "+8 DCV, Bulky OIF: Plate Mail")

...Typing that out, it all sounds pretty solid, until I realize that it would involved something like 6-8 stunts to do.

...and there it is, again...

...D&D magic is such a grab-bag, it doesn't translate well to 'story games.'

 

[Mercule]

...D&D magic is such a grab-bag, it doesn't translate well to 'story games.'

Here's where I'm afraid I'm doing things "wrong". I don't want to just recreate D&D in Fate. If I do that, I may as well just keep playing D&D. I definitely want to keep using D&D for inspiration. I just don't want to be saddled by it.

Maybe I just need to accept that D&D casters are crazy and that Fate might mean narrower focus, but better meat on the bones.

 

[Garthanos]

That's the issue I was seeing.

Mage had 9 spheres and Ars Magicka, IIRC, had sets of verbs and objects (something like that?) - they both let you cast magick more or less extemporaneously.

Ars magica had rote spells which were the core of it ... while they were powered by noun verb combos an improvisation was massively less potent than a established spell.

 

[Afrodyte]

Personally, I'm partial to skill-based systems or to costs for magic -- or both. I think it's necessary for Eberron to have "reliable magic", since it's part of the foundation of the setting, and all. But, by saying wizards (etc.) have the option of throwing a fate/mana point for any given spell to skip the die roll and assume a +0 serves the setting quite well. After all, no one cares whether you succeeded with style for a continual flame spell, which is the sort of thing that actually powers the economy.

(snip)

No. Where I struggle is how do you let a wizard have more than three spells when that's all the more stunts they start with (Fate characters start as "competent" not first level)? You could go the route of Mage: the Whatever or Ars Magicka and have several broad skills, but that strays too far from D&D tropes to make Eberron work, IMO. It also runs into the trouble of having a ridiculously long skill list.

(snip)

Typing that out, it all sounds pretty solid, until I realize that it would involved something like 6-8 stunts to do. I could grant him a "package deal" of three or four of them for a cost of 2 refresh, but that doesn't totally make up the gap. And, he's just a sorcerer. Turn him into a wizard, with the vast litany of spells that entails, and it's a real puzzle. I think using the ability to swap out a stunt at a major milestone -- maybe with a perk that lets a wizard do more than one, as long as they're all "spell" stunts -- could be an effective way of replicating the spell book idea. Still, that's just another way of doing Vancian slots and it's actually fewer slots.

Edit: Tagging [MENTION=8713]Afrodyte[/MENTION] because more detail.

I think the thing you need to wrap your head around is that Stunts don't necessarily have to be specific spells. Stunts can be situations where your spellcasting is enhanced or altered in some way, and it's up to the player and the DM to enforce the limitations of Aspects and Skills to account for magical or mundane methods.

You don't even need a specific Skill for casting spells. You can use the default list (or one retooled for your campaign), but flavor it as magic with Aspects and Stunts. So, instead of rolling the Magic Skill (for example) to cast flame bolt or whatever, you can roll Shoot, and give a bonus with an Aspect like Let Me Check My Spellbook and a (picks something out of the air) Magic Wand Stunt that allows you to use a magic wand to make Shoot rolls.

You also have the option of not always having Stunts tied to Skills. For instance, you can have a Stunt like Magic Drain that allows you to take Stress for an extra +2 bonus when casting spells or to enhance spellcasting in some other way.