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They *are* admirable.

Just not as good people.

Anytime somebody bucks the weight of social convention to do something they believe is necessary and correct, it is admirable. They don't have to be right. This ties into the issue of determining 'evil' and 'good', and hence basing value judgments on actions/intentions. You can only do it subjectively, and our minds run out of comprehension space after certain temporal factors.

Doesn't mean I won't shoot them if I think it is ultimately harmful.

Everything in your post smacks of absolutism, and that's ultimately something I cannot consciously argue with, because it, to me, is self-evidently false, and highly dependant on an external, stand-alone entity.

If you have somebody who is unable to comprehend the medium-term consqeuences of their actions, or is unable to predict the potential actions of those otherwise affected by their initial actions.. what are they?

They act in the moment, without regard to consequences. Are they good or evil? Who determines?

Courage is a virtue, and is independant to other virtues.
A collection of virtues is established to create behaviour that the originator of the system has decided is 'good'. Working towards those virtues is 'good' Never bad.
 

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Celebrim, just a quick one about the discussion. I'll make another post to answer some gameplay points.

No need to back down in any strong sense - my reference to the board rules was just because it is hard to discuss some of the historical and contemporary examples (imperialism, Rawls, etc) without breaking the no politics/no religion rule. I'm not suggesting that you've done anything improper.

Also I have to write a couple of papers for work (one on the relationship between law and responsibility for wrongdoing) which means I don't have time to write the same stuff for the ENworld forums.

And on the disingenousness, you didn't use that word but I took you to be implying it - but no apology is required. I thought it was a legitimate attack upon what one (and I thought you, but wrongly) may have taken to be my argumentative strategy. I just wanted to make it clear that I genuinely don't see how you are distinguishing law and chaos - that is, although I do see the force of the reasons you adduce for drawing the distinction in a particular way I don't see how you have rebutted what strike me as equally salient reasons for drawing it in a different way. Unfortunately, as I've said, for both time and board rules reasons I don't think I can pursue it.

VannATLC said:
Pemerton and Celebrim.

Too much of your arguments (Between each other, not the arguments themselves.) are demonstrating that prior to any other differences, your concepts of Law and Chaos differ too significantly, and you have no baseline to make your arguments against each other.
I don't really agree with this. I think that we disagree. I also think that Celebrim's concept of Law/Chaos is not really coherent or defensible, but he (obviously and naturally) thinks that it is, at least to a degree. Conversely, I imagine that he thinks that my attacks upon the coherence of his notions fail - naturally and obviously, I think that they succeed.

Disagreement isn't a shocking thing. At least for me, it's a stock-in-trade of my job.

But I do think that it is not helpful for a game to almost go out of its way to turn these disagreements into an obstacle to successful and fun play. Thus, at a somewhat meta-level, I think that it counts as a good reason to drop the "total" model of alignment that it can engender this degree of disagreement over its classificatory capacity (and that is even before we actually turn to classificatory questions about particular actions or particular individuals).
 

On the virtue ethics thing:

I don't think Celebrim's position is especially absolutist. It's just not virtue theory. Similarly, Raz argues that autonomy is valuable only if used to pursue valuable things, whereas many others think that autonomy is a good in itself.

I'm personally not that sympathetic to virtue theory - I think it tends to replace moral evaluation with aesthetic evaluation (the courageous soldier is admirable, perhaps, but frequently not moral).

But in the context of this thread isn't the real point this: D&D should be written so that a utilitarian and a virtue theorist and a Platonist and a Kantian and a libertarian and . . . can all sit down and play together without having to set aside their differences in order for the game to get started.

This doesn't mean not raising moral questions in play. It does mean not requiring those questions to be answered as a necessary condition of play getting going.
 

The courageous soldier is admirable, perhaps, but frequently not moral.

Can't help myself. :P

I'm not sure a soldier is a good example of what I would (As above) define as courageous. They could be, yes. But I've no overt need to get into a virtue-comparison-discussion :D
 

Celebrim said:
In practice most players should play a neutral character. Playing an aligned character is difficult, and deserves some leeway. After all, mortals aren't perfect. The biggest source of friction - the fact that changing alignments would cost you a level - is done away with, so what's the problem?[
I'll answer the question first, then come back to the more interesting point.

The common problems are three:

1) If your alignment changes it can debar you from a class (cleric, paladin, druid, bard, barbarian, monk) for no very good reason but that you and the GM disagree on some moral matter. This just seems unnecessary and unhelpful. Paladins aren't actually a broken class if allowed to fall short of the GM's ideal of the code, so it doesn't do any harm to game balance to allow the issue of wrongdoing, falling and so on to be actually worked out in the course of play (eg the paladin's NPC comrades start shunning him, the druid finds that the trees no longer welcome her, etc). This can be done without mechanically purging the character - which, in D&D, just sucks for the player.

2) As a sort of generalised version of the above, some GMs only allow good PCs (or at least disallow evil PCs). This means that alignment change can cut one out of the game.

Now, if there are real "social contract" issues - eg one player wants to roleplay a violent murderer of human civilians and the GM and other players don't - then those have to be resolved. But the alignment rules don't help with this. If anything, they exacerbate it, by concealing the real social contract conflict and presenting it under the cloak of a game mechanical problem.

3) Following on somewhat from number 2), there is something quite insulting about being told by others that one's convictions are evil, if one thinks them good. The argument is sometimes put that "good" in D&D doesn't really mean good, and that "evil" doesn't really mean evil - that they are simply mechanical labels with no meaning outside the game - but this contention is wrong (IMO) for at least 2 reasons: (i) many GMs forbid evil PCs, because they don't want to GM for players whose PCs indulge in wickedness, and this only makes sense if "evil" means something in the neighbourhood of evil; (ii) that demons, orcs etc are of evil alignment is meant to justify PCs fighting and killing them, and this justification only works if "evil" means something in the neighbourhood of evil.

Celebrim said:
And the refuge of playing a character that isn't aligned has always been there if you wanted it.
I may be wrong about 4e, but I see this as something new, and different from playing a Neutral character. The difference is this: a Neutral character is always in danger of being relabelled by the GM, with all the consequences attendant on that that I've set out above. Whereas, if my understanding is right, an Unaligned character is never in danger of being reballed unless s/he actively seeks out an affilation with Good or Evil.

Now, maybe I'm wrong in my guestimation of the 4e mechanics. If so, then it doesn't achieve the improvements I've been spruiking on its behalf.

Celebrim said:
If questions and difficulties are to be avoided, then yes not having questions or answers is certainly an improvement. Over the years I've taken a great deal of pleasure in thinking very deeply about what my characters believe to be true and then playing as if I had conviction - even if I myself didn't believe any of it. This is a fantasy, so picking something up out of a box labeled 'Chaotic Neutral' or 'Lawful Good' is alot more interesting than picking something up labeled 'phenomenalism' (well, may not to a professor of philosophy I grant you).
In my Greyhawk game I did work out a roughly phenomenalist metaphysics for some of the clergy of Pholtus - but that was many years ago when I was an undergraduate with too much time on his hands.

More pertinently, I have nothing against the game raising moral questions. I just want the players and GM to be free to answer them - and perhaps disagree about them - in the course of play.

Some examples of what I mean:

One memorable character I've GMed was a RM sorcerer who was a freed slave, morally and politically committed, but also weak of will and prone to indebtedness (in part through drug addiction, to a herb that would help him regain power points more quickly). In the end he changed allegiances from the government of his own (free) city to the imperial power because they promised him a magistracy. He rationalised this as (in part) a chance to take power and use it to do good.

The character generated a lot of commentary from other players in the game, and obviously playing out the adventures that all this happened in required us to address moral questions. I don't see that D&D alignment rules could have added anything to that endeavour however, and indeed would have got in the way, by forcing a simple label to be put upon a very morally complex individual.

In the same game, that character's friend ended up betraying one of his party members who then got sacrificed on an evil god's altar (at the metagame level, the two players were in agreement that the player of the sacrificed character wanted to introduce a new PC with a different class). Traditional D&D forces me to label that character Evil, I think - but the label adds nothing of interest to the moral issue, and would not have contributed to the very interesting play that resulted.

My current RM game involves two Samurai, a Pure Land Sect Warrior Monk and a more mystical Shingon-type Mind Monk (all probably Lawful in D&D terms), plus another quasi-Samurai warrior mage (probably N or NE in D&D terms), a tree spirit druid (proably N or NG in D&D terms) and a fox spirit archer/enchanter (maybe CN in D&D terms?) working together, in defiance of the will of Heaven and the Lords of Karma (who are also all probably Lawful in D&D terms), to help free a dead god who is trapped in the (Far Realms-style) Void (which is probably Chaotic in D&D terms). Labelling this as law vs chaos doesn't, to me, add very much. The two monks are very different from one another in outlook and motivation, and the samurai different again. And their defiance of Heaven and Karma - presumably, in D&D terms, non-Lawful behaviour, is crucial to the story but does nothing to bring them into any sort of allegiance with the Void. The Mind Monk (who I imagine is strongly LN in D&D terms?) is the most obviously tempted by the "Super-Enlightenment" on offer from the voidal entities - its something too esoteric for the others to really get at - and yet in D&D that would probably require me to say that a LN character is the most tempted by a CN/CE realm, which would make no sense.

These are the play experiences I've had which make me feel that alignment doesn't help the game, and gets in the way of rather than facilitates the exploration of moral philosophy by way of roleplaying.

I'm not saying that the 4e system would necessarily help this sort of play. But I think it is less likely to get in the way of it, because (if I am right in my understanding of it) it does not purport to make alignment a total system.
 

smetzger said:
I agree completely. I bet 4.5 goes to using G, N, and E. Why did they only 'half' fix alignment? Reminds me of 3.0 where every class lost weapon restrictions except for the Druid.
hong said:
Change management. Gotta make sure you don't change too much, too quickly.
An alternative hypothesis: it adds something to a high fantasy game to distinguish Round Table or Seven Samurai good guys (ie those bound by a code of honour) from ordinary good guys; and it adds something to the game to distinguish cosmological or utterly mindless evil (ie demons, orcs etc) from mere garden variety villainy (eg Prince John).

keterys said:
I suspect they only kept the difference so you could distinguish:
'Evil for no redeeming reason' and 'Good confined by rules' from the rest.
Exactly.

Celebrim said:
The new system just seems really dumbed down.
Whereas to me it just seems more genre-appropriate.
 

This whole thread has me hoping that they make sure they define the meaning of Lawful, Chaotic, Neutral, Evil and Good within the realms of the rules more distinctly. Cutting down the options may be the only way they can do this in a clear and concise manner, without clogging up the rule system for the rest of the game.

To me the line between good and evil is none existant except in the mind of the individual. It is a concept of belief which can never be anything other than personal. Just as this statement is just one personal view. There is no right or wrong to it except in my own minds eye.

In a game though we need to be able define who are the 'good' guys and who are the 'bad'. Or more correctly, who is on your side and who is the opposition. The simpler you can make this the easier the game will flow. If this creates restrictions in what is possible then so be it. Those are the boundaries of the fantasy setting. Those restriction are one of the many elements that makes the setting and 'ordered' fantasy that everyone can play in.

The Lawful/Chaotic alignment creates a more in depth experience of the roleplaying experience only. Neither sit well with the concept of good and evil because they have more concrete definitions. One is bound by a set of rules the other is bound by no rules. Whilst they can sit on either side of the good and evil fence quite comfortably, they require a ruling of there own to define who's side they are on. But in applying a simple rule to them (and effectively putting them on one side of the fence or the other) you can use them to create a set of rules for the boundaries of good and evil in the fantasy setting. Technically you could use either to pin down each end of the imaginary good and evil spectrum, but since we need rules to follow game it makes sense that the 'good' guys follow the rules of the fantasy defining what is good and chaos pins down the 'evil' that would unravel the very fabric of the fantasy world (in fantasy theory) we are playing in.

In this way we are able to have imaginary rules for what is good and what is bad that everyone can work with, within the context of the fantasy. The simpler this definition of rules can be, the more easily the fantasy can be constructed through the rules of the game to suit the broadest number of potential players.

The beauty of a simplfied alignment system though, is that those who wish to add to its complexity in their game can do so without the system braking the game for other potential players less concerned with knowing any more than which side they want to be on.


I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my statements, feel free to pick as they are just as always imho only. :)

T.

PS. Neutrals - the balance between good & evil making them the keepers of the greater good or plain evil fence sitters? ;)
 

Mal Malenkirk said:
95% of snipers are soldiers and police officers. Granted, police officer snipers don't shoot government officials, but military ones do it in times of war. Pretty much like Robin Hood did. These guys aren't chaotic or the military system would have spat them out.

You have this mania of tagging alignmkent on actions with no concern for the context. Which result in you tagging 'Chaotic' characters who are clearly fighting for order.

Sorry, but the archons are all chaotic evil while staying strongly militaristic. That doesn't work.

List those versions, please.

The early 16th century ones frequently had Robin Hood and his men robbing just about ANYONE, and then murdering innocent civilians so they couldn't tell the Sheriff where they were hiding.

Robion Hood did what he did because his moral compass about what is right or wrong wouldn't change.

If his alignment changes before, during and after his rebellion, it cheapens his actions. Robin Hood's tale is never one of redemption.

He fought John's order not because order is wrong but because John was Evil. That's why he stopped fighting when richard took back the throne. Which wouldn't make sense if he was CHAOTIC fighting LAWFUL but makes perfect sense if he is GOOD fighting EVIL.

If Robin was truly chaotic, he would have stayed in the wood after Richard returned.

I'm agreeing that, in most versions, Robin Hood was good. But he changes in the end from chaotic to neutral.

I'd disagree strongly with your second statement. If anything, if his alignment DIDN'T change it would cheapen his actions. Who wants to read a story with no conflict? Instead, because Robin Hood's alignment changes, he decides to leave the forest and go back into greater society.

In D&D terms, these people are unaligned/neutral. They are not doing actions contrary to their moral compass because truth is their internalized moral values are much weaker than what they express.

No, it's people being human. Lawful Good doesn't mean ALWAYS LAWFUL, ALWAYS GOOD, ALL THE TIME. As the quote goes, "You're human; chances are, you're going to screw up. That's what the Redemption spell is FOR."

Most people only truly feel moral wrongness at the thought of the more extreme for depravities such as incest, murder or rape. It's easy to say you think tax evasion is harmful to the society, but noth that many people genuinely care. Even D&D recognize that most people are neutral/unaligned and therefore hardly ever violate their alignment since there is so little of it to violate.

Yes, most people are generally unaligned, but that doesn't mean nobody ever screws up.

Never said that. Said that one particular actions isn't indicative of a good alignment D&D terms. Never said once that no action is.

Take the mafia hitmen who protects his family. If his employers turn on him and he tries to save his family, does it make him good? No, it's just a biologic imperative.

Who says biological imperative isn't good? Besides, LOTS of people leave their families for their own selfish desires all the time. It's obviously not that strong of a biological imperative.

If he reaches out to the family of a man he killed, tries to earn their forgiveness and to protect them from his employer who wants to youngest child to die because he is a witness in the upcoming tria,.is he good? Well, getting there. Because this attempt at redemption indicate an alignment shifting. Saving your family doesn't. It's expected.

Saving your family isn't expected, because it's an inherently altruistic act. You are putting your life on the line for someone that will not benefit you. That's the very definition of altruistic.

Concerning the Sons of Liberty thing... I have no clue who they are and no interest in finding out which is why I didn't comment.

They were the terrorist group made up of who would later be the founding fathers of America ;)
 

ProfessorCirno said:
I'm agreeing that, in most versions, Robin Hood was good. But he changes in the end from chaotic to neutral.

I'd disagree strongly with your second statement. If anything, if his alignment DIDN'T change it would cheapen his actions. Who wants to read a story with no conflict? Instead, because Robin Hood's alignment changes, he decides to leave the forest and go back into greater society.

Is it that he changed alignment, or that he was never CG to begin with? 4E simply assumes that latter.
 

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