I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND

[demiurge1138]

Re: Re: Re: I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND

Is it just me, or when the Agent jumped onto the car with Trinity, Morpheus, Keymaker, and the Twin, did it seem to anyone else like he was shooting at the Twin moreso than the other folks? And the Twin shot back... possibly implies there's a bit more to them.

Of course. The Agents took an interest in the freeway scene because they wanted to "delete" the Keymaker. It's their job to destroy rogue programs, and since the Twins definately qualify, the Agents would try to take them out if they got a chance.

Demiurge out.

 

[Villano]

Okay, I just saw reloaded and while I liked it, I did have a few problems with some things.

First, the rave at the temple and the Neo/Trinity love scene. It was very akward and stopped the movie dead in its tracks for me. It reminded me of the topless woman in Demolition Man. Y'know, a sex scene tossed in after the fact because a producer thought there wasn't enough sex.

And some of the FX were lacking. One panning scene in particular caused some blurring on some of the Smiths in the big Smith/Neo fight.

Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but, while the highway chase and battle were excellent, all those other cars were being driven presumably by normal people trapped in the matrix. So, with all the crashes, dozens of people were probably killed. And none of the characters seemed to care.

Which leads us to my biggest complaint: a lack of the humanity found in the first one. All the characters were all too cool. Plus so many of the character weren't even human, just programs, so that didn't help.

And I was confused about the French guy. Was he a program? If so, why was he interested in sex? And if his wife is also a program, why was she jealous?

One thing I really did like was the return of a rogue Smith. I must admit I hated the character in the 1st one, but I like the fact that we have what is in effect 2 villains; the larger, more powerful matrix, and the wild card Smith.

It was also nice to see Gina "Firefly" Torres in a cameo. It's not really surprising, though, considering she's Mrs. Lawrence Fishburn.

I'm actually a bit surprised that, while someone mentioned the "Matrix sound" when Persephone kissed Neo, no one mentioned that she applied lipstick before kissing Neo. Was she infecting him with a virus? Or did he upgrade him with a new code? Maybe this is the reason he could affect the outside world?

Okay, I kind of doubt that part. Personally, I think that Neo has become so connected to the matrix (or perhaps was just different in some way from the other Ones) that he can now effect the system without jacking in.

But the matrix within a matrix idea is interesting. Has anyone considered that the entire film is taking place within a computer and we'll discover that Neo, Trinity, etc are all programs? Maybe the 3rd film will end with Neo destroying the matrix and the citizens of Zion cheering. We pull back farther and farther until we actually pull out of a computer. We see a Dilbert-looking nerd in a cubicle tapping on the keyboard, muttering, "Damn systems crashed again."

 

[Welverin]

Also, and I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but, while the highway chase and battle were excellent, all those other cars were being driven presumably by normal people trapped in the matrix. So, with all the crashes, dozens of people were probably killed. And none of the characters seemed to care.

There is a bit of an esplanation from the first movie, at one point one of the more experienced characters tells Neo that any non-freed mind is a potential enemy and not to hold back when fighting them, and a potential agent waiting to happen.

Also if they had stopped to worry about those people they surely would have failed to escape with the Keymaker, if not all died outrght, and what would have happened to all of those people then?

I'm actually a bit surprised that, while someone mentioned the "Matrix sound" when Persephone kissed Neo, no one mentioned that she applied lipstick before kissing Neo.

Did you also notice that she took them to the men's bathroom? Also known as the place the Merovingian should have been if he was really going to take a piss.

 

[Arken]

Re: Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain

The Questions:

1. There is a scene which is presented after Neo+Trinity have made love while they are sleeping. We see Smith chasing 2 rebels, one gets away, one gets assimilated into Smith.exe and jacks out. Neo wakes up.

Why does Neo wake up?

A) Is he having a bad dream while this is happening (of Trinity dying perhaps, which is also alluded to)?

B) Are Smith and Neo so connected that Neo "felt" his prescence in the real world (or the 2nd layer of the Matrix, if you are so inclined)?

C) Did Neo actually dream that sequence? If so, why is he "surprised" at all the Smiths later, and/or why doesn't he inform everyone of this rather important discovery.

I believe that Neo could not have had the dream, as he would have done something about it. Although, he has been having bad dreams about Trinity but doesn't do anything to stop her from jacking in until the end.

I think that he dreamt what we saw but that at this point he does not realise he 'has the sight' of the oracle program to see the future of the matrix. Therefore at this point he jsut thinks it's a bad, bad dream I suppose (and so is actually surprised by the 'reality' of multiple Smiths). Later after the oracle has revealed that his 'sight' is true he starts to act on it telling trinity not to go into the matrix after having seen her shot in a dream. It sort of represented to me that to an extent Neo has internalised the matris which interlinked for me with his ability to affect machines in the real world.
Just my interpretation though.

2. There is a scene where the person assimilated by Smith is in Zion, he has a knife and appears to be on the verge of attacking Neo. The kid runs up, interrupting Smith's plan, but he shakes Neo's hand. Later, in the council, Smith tries to urge the captain of the ship he is from to be the other ship to look for the nebuchenezzar (sp?) and is quieted by the captain.

What are Smith's motives while in the real world?

A) He is merely trying to kill Neo, If so, why does he some to hold some regard for his own life? He could probably have assaulted Neo even with the kid running up. There also seems to be plenty of guns and such around Zion, couldn't he have gotten access to something more dangerous and killed Neo?

B) While some of Smith's plans, patterns, and persona was imprinted, it is not a true Smith and there is a human will struggling against the intrusion.The only evidence is cutting his palm, but see below.

C) Smith doesn't know what he wants, though as the oracle states, he seems to want more power. This could be reflected by the smiths general group mentality, ie- there doesn't seem to be a "king smith", just a bunch of individuals with the same persona and goals. A singular race.

I thought the oracle was refering to the Merilvingion(sp?) in the statement about powerful men though the assesment could well apply to smith aswell. I think Smith has turned into a direct counter-agent to 'The One' program therefore he is compelled to try and kill Neo. Specifically in the real world though I'm not sure of his goals as it seems to be suggested he was working towards the furthering of the goals of the machines (by betraying the Zion counterattack) but this would seem to conflict with the idea of him as a rogue program that hates 'control'. I don't know about 'purpose' in copying himself either really, he is performing like a virus but it doesn't seem like a 'conquest' thing so far.

What is the significance of cutting his hand just before assaulting him?

A) There is a struggle in the body between the Smith character and the human who formerly controlled the body. This is still not a strong theory.

B) There is some symbolism to cutting his own hand.

C) He is trying to frame Neo somehow?

I must admit I had no clue why he was cutting himself

3. When the archietect and Neo have their discourse, Neo says "the oracle" after which the archietect says "Please" in a disparaging tone.

What does this response mean?

A) The oracle is not who he is referring to. Which begs the question, who is he reffering to? The only other likely candidate seems to be Persephone, but as she is a rogue program it seems unlikely.

B) His tone indicates displeasure at being interrupted so Neo could say something obvious. This seems likely, as the oracle herself hinted that she had a hand in the creation of the Matrix, thereby making her the "mother".

I agree with 'B' nothing else would seem to make sense from the characters already revealed however if the oracle was such an integral 'mother' program to the matrix why did the merilvingion suggest that her time was nearly up. Also the tone of the architect did sound more like A. I don't know but am assuming that it WAS the oracle at this point.

4. In the same conversation Neo is given a choice (seemingly). This choice involves the death of every human being, either plugged into the Matrix or living in Zion or merely the destruction of Zion with the ability to restock it with handpicked individuals. In either situation, Trinity dies. The oracle seems surprised by the emotion he reads from Neo, and hence, Neo's decision which is apparantly different from those who came before him.

Why is Neo given a choice?

A) If the One weren't given a choice, he would disbelieve the 2nd layer of the Matrix and awaken from it, giving him a choice keeps him from believing the truth. There is enough to suggest a 2nd layer of the Matrix mathematically, but there is almost nothing in the films to suggest this, with the only possible thing being Neo's control over Sentinels at the end of the film.

B) The illusion of giving a choice makes it easier to re-assimilate the remainders the one contains. An unwilling one may try to escape/conceal information which is vital to running the Matrix, therefore making it a willing decision of the One allows for the greatest retention of important material for the next reset of the Matrix.

I think that if the one chooses the source then they can't 'conceal' facts. However the way I interpreted the scene was as a crystilisation of the 'problem' of choice. The One, whilst being the carrier of the stability of the matrix (by the 'remainder') is also by its nature human and therefore embodies the problem with humanity as being imperfect. All that can be done, therefore, is to construct huge amounts of the matrix with the only goal being to get the One to the source and to get the one to make the 'right' choice. The oracle leads him to the source, the keymaker's purpose is to get him to the source etc. The One must be given a choice because he embodies 'choice'. If that makes sense

5. Based on the films, we are led to believe the Matrix has existed in different iterations. Though the Matrix currently is running at the peak of human civilization, other matrices may not have been made with such a timeframe. 1999 would be an optimum year because humans had learned to support many many millions of people on a single planet, though the first Matrix would not have had that many people.

Were there earlier Matrices set in earlier times?

A) We don't know, but its possible.

If the Matrix has been reset 5 times previously and Zion subsequently destroyed, shouldn't there be holes going down to Zion already? What about destroyed hovercraft from earlier rebel groups? What about very small cells that escaped and are living somewhere else?

Technik

Yep, the previous matrices could have been anything, not even from history even.

On the second point I got the impression that the world is a blasted wrreckage with the war going so far back in history and memory that the details cannot be remembered. Morpheus says he doesn't know who blasted the sky etc. Therefore wreckages etc. wouldn't be too surprising.

Really good questions!

 

[Noldor Elf]

What is the significance of cutting his hand just before assaulting him?

A) There is a struggle in the body between the Smith character and the human who formerly controlled the body. This is still not a strong theory.

B) There is some symbolism to cutting his own hand.

C) He is trying to frame Neo somehow?

What if Smith is not trying to attack Neo? Instead of killing him he is trying to "connect" him (like what he did inside Matrix) and the cut is needed to create connection (we was going to cut similar wound to Neo's hand, like traditional bloodoath)?

 

[Someone]

It´s clear through the whole movie that Smith tries to kill Neo.

What I think´s strange is that the "real world" Smith is found comatose, like Neo, and apparently after a battle with sentinels (too) Maybe he can control machines in the real world, like Neo.

 

[Villano]

There is a bit of an esplanation from the first movie, at one point one of the more experienced characters tells Neo that any non-freed mind is a potential enemy and not to hold back when fighting them, and a potential agent waiting to happen.

Also if they had stopped to worry about those people they surely would have failed to escape with the Keymaker, if not all died outrght, and what would have happened to all of those people then?

That might be a reason, but it's a damn cold one. If they wanted to show the humanity of the characters, having them get upset at the deaths on the freeway would have been better than the rave scene.

Did you also notice that she took them to the men's bathroom? Also known as the place the Merovingian should have been if he was really going to take a piss.

Yeah, when she first went in there, I wondered why she did. Then I remebered that the cake girl was in the ladies room. And then I wondered where the French guy was.

And then I went, "Oooooh, I get it!"

 

[Kesh]

Re: Stuff that Still Has me Wracking My Brain

The Questions:

1. There is a scene which is presented after Neo+Trinity have made love while they are sleeping. We see Smith chasing 2 rebels, one gets away, one gets assimilated into Smith.exe and jacks out. Neo wakes up.

Why does Neo wake up?

I believe Neo has achieved a level of connection to the Matrix that does not require a physical link. Perhaps it's something unique to his implants, perhaps it's psychic... either way, he wasn't dreaming this scene. Rather, he 'felt' something had gone wrong, just as he 'felt' something was different when confronting the Sentinels.

2. There is a scene where the person assimilated by Smith is in Zion, he has a knife and appears to be on the verge of attacking Neo. The kid runs up, interrupting Smith's plan, but he shakes Neo's hand. Later, in the council, Smith tries to urge the captain of the ship he is from to be the other ship to look for the nebuchenezzar (sp?) and is quieted by the captain.

What are Smith's motives while in the real world?

To kill Neo. That seems to be his only goal now.

3. When the archietect and Neo have their discourse, Neo says "the oracle" after which the archietect says "Please" in a disparaging tone.

What does this response mean?

He found the name 'Oracle' to be grandiose and ill-chosen. It's the old science vs. religion conflict: the Architect represents order and precision, while the Oracle represents random probability and human faith.

4. In the same conversation Neo is given a choice (seemingly). This choice involves the death of every human being, either plugged into the Matrix or living in Zion or merely the destruction of Zion with the ability to restock it with handpicked individuals. In either situation, Trinity dies. The oracle seems surprised by the emotion he reads from Neo, and hence, Neo's decision which is apparantly different from those who came before him.

Why is Neo given a choice?

In the end, the Architect expects that there isn't a choice. Neo must choose to reload the Matrix and destroy Zion, because to do otherwise would mean killing billions.

However, the Architect is still a machine. It thinks in binary terms: one or the other. And humans are emotional beings. Presenting each One with a moral dilemma makes it easier to control them, and force the 'correct' path.

Neo just blew that calculation away. Which the Architect seemed to realise.

5. Based on the films, we are led to believe the Matrix has existed in different iterations. Though the Matrix currently is running at the peak of human civilization, other matrices may not have been made with such a timeframe. 1999 would be an optimum year because humans had learned to support many many millions of people on a single planet, though the first Matrix would not have had that many people.

Were there earlier Matrices set in earlier times?

Possible, but unlikely. If a certain time period is the most successful, it would be best to reuse it next time the system was reset.

Consider the many people running Windows on their computers. Though it improves over time, essentially it follows the same appearances and conventions each time. For many people, that is more important than the intricate control you can gain with Linux, or simplicity of DOS.

Of course, that means the MacOS is the very first Matrix. It's too perfect, and people wouldn't accept it. (Except for a few of us.)

Ahem. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Negative Zero]

here's something that confuses me. when Neo first encounters Smith, Smith says that he's been given purpose, and that he's now here to "take [Neo's] purpose." then tries to copy himself into Neo. this begs the question: Simth wants to become The One himself? i'm not entirely convinced that he wants to outright "kill" Neo.

of course, there are several problems with this. if Smith wants Neo's "purpose," why does his "real world" persona sabotage the Zion counter attack? of course we're never shown that he was the one who did the sabotaging. simply left with a survivor and some vague finger pointing.

the new virus Smith was the most interesting part of the movie for me. i'm having a hell of a time figuring out what he wants.

~NegZ

 

[Welverin]

That might be a reason, but it's a damn cold one.

I know, I was just throwing it out there.

here's something that confuses me. when Neo first encounters Smith, Smith says that he's been given purpose, and that he's now here to "take [Neo's] purpose." then tries to copy himself into Neo.

Wasn't he just saying he wanted what Neo had, i.e. a purpose, not necessarily Neo's purpose?