I saw the MATRIX 2 thread SPOILERS ABOUND
- Thread starter KChagga
- Start date
EricNoah said:
The "choice" is part of the trap. Seeing and reducing everything to either/or, a series of binary opposites. I see the Architect offering a choice between two prisons, not a way out.
Of course, I'm viewing the Matrix through a scrim of Grant Morrion's The Invisibles, which goes on at some length about these themes.
Which is kinda interesting, because in the climax of the Invisibles, neither of two rival philosophies/sides/realities defeats the other. They get unified and thus transcend their conflict --which involves the nature of reality/mind of God.
Ysgarran
Registered User
This reminds me of the story line of Babylon 5 and the war against the shadows. The real choice is the third path, not the two obvious choices provided by the Shadows or Vorlons.
I'm not familiar with Grant Morrion's The Invisibles, I'll have to look at that.
later,
Ysgarran.
I'm not familiar with Grant Morrion's The Invisibles, I'll have to look at that.
later,
Ysgarran.
EricNoah said:
Negative Zero
First Post
Ysgarran said:
Pertinent = pertains to. it's the question that relates to the situation or is directly tied to it.
Reevant = matters. does the answer really matter? the answer likely will not change the situation, or affect it in any way.
~NegZ
btw:
i wasn't blown away by the movie, but i'm really enjoying this thread. it may even be changing some of my initial feelings. but i'm reserving comment till i see it a second time ... wait, that was a comment, wasn't it? aww dammit!
You and "the One/neO" and Trinity should get together and do some math (maybe along with Cypher from the first movie).
Negative Zero
First Post
lol
ironically, i sucked at math! no one was moresurprisd than i was when i found out that i'd passed math after highschool
but i guess i would be Cypher's nemesis if we were comic book characters 
~NegZ
ironically, i sucked at math! no one was moresurprisd than i was when i found out that i'd passed math after highschool
but i guess i would be Cypher's nemesis if we were comic book characters ~NegZ
Miscellaneous
Heya:
Some miscellaneous thoughts after seeing the movie twice (once on Friday and again on Sunday):
1. Yeah, why run away when he knows he can kicks Smith-butt? His first fight with Smith (in Matrix 1), he was spitting up blood all over the place (in the Matrix and the "real" world). After this flight (and flying to the Oracle's place) he logged out and was fine, just a bit winded. No problemo.
2. He can fly, sure but can't teleport. At least not yet. Remember when Supes, Zod, and the evil chick in Superman 2 moved ultra fast at the Fortress of Solitude? Very cool. Anyway, evidence seems to be that if he prepares for a second or two (and causes some neat wave motion), he can fly very fast. If he can't prepare (in the hallway of Doors and at the Merovingian's place), he's not quite as fast.
3. I hope that if the "real" world is another level of the Matrix, that the REAL real world is nicer than the Black Sky world, like with green grass, butterflies, etc. So if they have a happy ending (big if), Neo and Trinity can live happily ever after. Aw.
4. Hey, no reason for the REAL real world to be a world, either. Maybe it's a big generation ship or something on the way to Epsilon Eridani and the AI got out of control. Metamorphosis Alpha.
5. I personally don't really like the idea of matrix-within-matrix, though. Sure, striving to pierce the final illusion is fun, but it feels to me like it renders the first movie completely irrelevant.
6. In a similar vein to 5, if lies are possible then _anything_ can be a lie. For example, if anything the Oracle said is declared to be a lie then anything the Architect said can potentially be a lie. Also, if the Oracle lied, then will Trinity start doubting her love for Neo. I guess I just like absolutes in movies. Or maybe there have been no lies, just ambiguous interpretations.
7. It should be against the law for babies to be allowed in R-rated movies. Note: Thanks for taking the baby out of the theatre when it started to cry and not just letting it go on and on, but, you see, the _instant_ it started crying, it brought me out of the movie. Totally disrupted everything. Grr. And then bringing it back inside so it can start crying again so you can take it outside to calm it down for a bit so you can take it back inside so it can cry again... Double grr.
8. I'm liking that idea that Neo can plug into the Matrix hands-free now.
9. Just because folks (like Trinity, not like Neo) can bend some of the rules doesn't mean they can bend all the rules. And not everyone can bend the same set of rules or to the same degree as others. Obvious, yeah, but sparked from another thread.
10. Some people think a movie should stand on its own merits. That you shouldn't have to wait for a third movie before judging the second movie harshly. I guess I agree, but I am definitely looking forward to some explanations in November.
Take care,
Dreeble
Heya:
Some miscellaneous thoughts after seeing the movie twice (once on Friday and again on Sunday):
1. Yeah, why run away when he knows he can kicks Smith-butt? His first fight with Smith (in Matrix 1), he was spitting up blood all over the place (in the Matrix and the "real" world). After this flight (and flying to the Oracle's place) he logged out and was fine, just a bit winded. No problemo.
2. He can fly, sure but can't teleport. At least not yet. Remember when Supes, Zod, and the evil chick in Superman 2 moved ultra fast at the Fortress of Solitude? Very cool. Anyway, evidence seems to be that if he prepares for a second or two (and causes some neat wave motion), he can fly very fast. If he can't prepare (in the hallway of Doors and at the Merovingian's place), he's not quite as fast.
3. I hope that if the "real" world is another level of the Matrix, that the REAL real world is nicer than the Black Sky world, like with green grass, butterflies, etc. So if they have a happy ending (big if), Neo and Trinity can live happily ever after. Aw.
4. Hey, no reason for the REAL real world to be a world, either. Maybe it's a big generation ship or something on the way to Epsilon Eridani and the AI got out of control. Metamorphosis Alpha.
5. I personally don't really like the idea of matrix-within-matrix, though. Sure, striving to pierce the final illusion is fun, but it feels to me like it renders the first movie completely irrelevant.
6. In a similar vein to 5, if lies are possible then _anything_ can be a lie. For example, if anything the Oracle said is declared to be a lie then anything the Architect said can potentially be a lie. Also, if the Oracle lied, then will Trinity start doubting her love for Neo. I guess I just like absolutes in movies. Or maybe there have been no lies, just ambiguous interpretations.
7. It should be against the law for babies to be allowed in R-rated movies. Note: Thanks for taking the baby out of the theatre when it started to cry and not just letting it go on and on, but, you see, the _instant_ it started crying, it brought me out of the movie. Totally disrupted everything. Grr. And then bringing it back inside so it can start crying again so you can take it outside to calm it down for a bit so you can take it back inside so it can cry again... Double grr.
8. I'm liking that idea that Neo can plug into the Matrix hands-free now.
9. Just because folks (like Trinity, not like Neo) can bend some of the rules doesn't mean they can bend all the rules. And not everyone can bend the same set of rules or to the same degree as others. Obvious, yeah, but sparked from another thread.
10. Some people think a movie should stand on its own merits. That you shouldn't have to wait for a third movie before judging the second movie harshly. I guess I agree, but I am definitely looking forward to some explanations in November.
Take care,
Dreeble
I've always been bothered by the "humans as batteries" explanation for the matrix. Even ignoring the laws of Thermodynamics, iIf you needed a source of biothermic heat energy, it would make much more sense to just use cows (ala PVP Comic) instead of humans, and have the Matrix be one big endless field. No rebellion to worry about.
I think the reason they use humans should also be the reason the Matrix exists in the first place. They use humans because they need something from us that they can't get from any other creature: Sentient Though.
The AI's aren't truly sentient on their own, the hardware can't support or simulate the processes necessary for truly sentient thought. Instead, the AI's run part of their programs on human brains. Humans are only supposed to use something like 10% of our potential anyway.
That's the purpose of the Matrix: keep all the humans plugged in and content, so the AI's can exist without any interference or interruptions.
And if you needed multiple humans to support each true AI (a "Matrix" of humans), then killing one human wouldn't adversely affect the AI, just change it's personality slightly as a new human is added to it's matrix for it's program to run on.
This would explain the variety of emotions that the AI's display. They aren't just simulating emotions, they are truly experiencing them, as part of their intellect resides in a human brain.
NEO could be a uniqe type of AI: One that runs on a single human brain, and has completely replaced the native human intellect. The first true man/AI synthesis. That is why he can exist when unplugged from the Matrix. This is also what happened to Agent Smith afte being diassembled by Neo and then recompiling himself: He gained that bit of code that allows NEO to exist in a single body. Of course, he can also copy himself and take over other programs or people.
Neo is the next step in the AI/Man synthesis: neither one dominant, instead a merged personality.
I think the reason they use humans should also be the reason the Matrix exists in the first place. They use humans because they need something from us that they can't get from any other creature: Sentient Though.
The AI's aren't truly sentient on their own, the hardware can't support or simulate the processes necessary for truly sentient thought. Instead, the AI's run part of their programs on human brains. Humans are only supposed to use something like 10% of our potential anyway.
That's the purpose of the Matrix: keep all the humans plugged in and content, so the AI's can exist without any interference or interruptions.
And if you needed multiple humans to support each true AI (a "Matrix" of humans), then killing one human wouldn't adversely affect the AI, just change it's personality slightly as a new human is added to it's matrix for it's program to run on.
This would explain the variety of emotions that the AI's display. They aren't just simulating emotions, they are truly experiencing them, as part of their intellect resides in a human brain.
NEO could be a uniqe type of AI: One that runs on a single human brain, and has completely replaced the native human intellect. The first true man/AI synthesis. That is why he can exist when unplugged from the Matrix. This is also what happened to Agent Smith afte being diassembled by Neo and then recompiling himself: He gained that bit of code that allows NEO to exist in a single body. Of course, he can also copy himself and take over other programs or people.
Neo is the next step in the AI/Man synthesis: neither one dominant, instead a merged personality.
I don't know why this just hit me but it did.
Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans. Elder Councliman is a former The One. He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything. He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart. He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work. And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others). That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city. The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.
Oh I can't wait till it comes out on IMAX so I can watch it again and see the teaser. But I am really looking forward to November.
Elder Concilman is talking to Neo before the Oracle calls him and tell him that humans need machines just like machines need humans. Elder Councliman is a former The One. He is the last one who made the choice to go to the source and restart everything. He knew that Neo was going to be faced with the upcoming choice and was trying to give him the advice to choose to restart. He evidentally can't say he is The One because then everyone wouldn't believe in the Prophecy and it wouldn't work. And to make it go even further the Council is made up of the last survivours of the original 24, (the One + 23 others). That is why the chose to help Neo and Morpheus instead of the logical thing which would be too defend the city. The know about the prophecy and must help move it along or everything will come to an end.
Oh I can't wait till it comes out on IMAX so I can watch it again and see the teaser. But I am really looking forward to November.
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